| rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: Nov 04 07:37PM -0600 On 11/4/2017 12:17 PM, RS Wood wrote: > Well, if replacing a timing belt is that easy, then maybe it's not so much > a crime that they put a 60k-mile part inside an interference engine. It'd the suspense that kills you. My Harley has a belt drive and the belt failed at around 45000. No sign of damage or deterioration just a clean break. I rode to work in the morning, came out, started the engine, let the clutch out and didn't go anyplace. Replacement is fairly easy on a Sportster but Harley is very proud of their belts, around $150 iirc. All things considered that's cheaper than chains if you put significant miles on a bike. |
| rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: Nov 04 07:47PM -0600 On 11/4/2017 12:17 PM, RS Wood wrote: > So I don't see how you can ever do car tires right at home because you > can't finish the job right. For some reason, motorcycle tires work just > fine without dynamic balancing. The bike I have that has tube tires is a DR650, dual spot, enduro, whatever you want to call it. I'm not sure if you ever tell if the tire was balanced with knobbies. Dunlop 606s are really rough but the Kendas I have on now aren't a Cadillac smooth ride. You get good at changing them because those style of tires are good for about 6000 miles at the outside. |
| rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: Nov 04 07:53PM -0600 On 11/4/2017 3:13 PM, TekkieŽ wrote: >> sober but shaky and falling down drunk. The runner up was a complete >> stoner. > From the paint? The paint fumes didn't help but the #1 guy's choice was Budweiser. #2's choice was anything he could get his hands on but speed makes painting fun. |
| Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>: Nov 05 01:45PM +1100 >> I do agree that PCV valves and condensers and points and carbs required >> maintenance basically yearly or every two years at the longest. > Often TWICE a year - spring and fall tuneups were common. My grandfather had a pair of Jowett Javelins in the 1950's. With the Solex carbies, tuneup's were more of a morning *and* afternoon thing. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM >>Of course, it has to be checked again after doing the camber and caster. > That's why you set the camber and caster FIRST!!!! Thanks for reminding me that it's caster, then camber, then toe! I don't know if they teach auto mechanics anymore in high school, but that class was a godsend, even for me, a college-prep kid. I used that shop class more than I used calculus in my life. I betcha they don't even have woodshop for the boys anymore. Or homeec for the girls. My grandkids are taking coed cooking classes in high school, but they don't even offer the shop classes we had when I was a kid. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM >>replace compared to today? > No lead and phosphorous in the gas makes a BIG difference - as does > more complete combustion. Stainless steel doesn't hurt either. Yet there is a lot more aluminum in engines nowadays. I don't see how the lead matters although we all went through the phase where we switched from leaded cars to lead-free cars and had to change pumps in the process. I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM > My neighbor still has a "Step 2" picnic table and teeter totter we > bought for our grand kids 15 years ago. His grand daughter is > outgrowing it now but they are still holding up. That reminds me. The white plastic topped and steel legged Costco picnic tables are *all* cracked and sunburned with holes in the corner. I've been meaning to return mine to Costco to give them a piece of my mind since the tables have "lifetime warranty" molded into the cheap plastic. They should make everything that is plastic intended for outdoors out of whatever plastic it is that they use for those wheeled garbage bins from the garbage company. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM Clifford Heath wrote: > breakthroughs also, like bearing seals that actually seal the > bearings, and better materials. Better anti-corrosion chemistry. > Stuff like that. Oh. That's interesting. What you're saying is that the manufacturers are using computers to make cars, which helps make better cars. That may very well be the case, since computers can be used to easily hone quality, bit by bit by bit, simply because of the inherent re-use that computers easily allow. You're right but I don't understand why we used to pack wheel bearings periodically and now we don't. Who doesn't remember glopping grease on your palm and then slapping a bearing through that grease? A kid of 30 or 40 years old doesn't know what we're talking about. Likewise, who hasn't squirted grease into a ball joint until it squirted back out of the pregnant rubber cup making farting sounds? Or a driveshaft u-joint where is just squirted out noiselessly. What's with bearings nowadays. Why don't wheel bearings need to be packed anymore and u-joints not need lubrication and ball joints not need it? What did they do differently? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM >>I understand the magic of computers getting more reliable but what's the >>magic in cars getting more reliable? > That's easy - Computers!!! Computers help make a lot of things not break. For example, fuel injection and a distributorless single coil per spark plug with a nice high voltage all by themselves prevented a billion tuneups. The EPA making exhaust systems have to last longer under warranty made the manufacturers make them out of stainless steel instead of pre-rusted Detroit steel. There are computers in plenty of other places (for example, ABS), but other than the fuel injection, where did computers play a role in engine longevity? I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't see how they play a role in engine longevity other than in the tuneup arena where they were an immense help. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM Ed Pawlowski wrote: >> When was the last time you replaced the old "points plugs and >> condenser" That used to be a once or twice a year thing. > Don't forget better lubricants too. Are the lubricants really contributing to longevity of the engine? The main lubricant, of course, is motor oil, which has gone from SB to SC, to SD to SE .... now to somewhere around SL, SM, SN ... but has *that* been contributing to engine life by a lot? The other lubricants, of course, are the gear oils, but again, GL4 and GL5 are pretty old stuff. I don't remember seeing Zerk fittings lately, so I think one thing with respect to lubrication is they made permanently lubricated driveshaft u-joints and suspension balljoints. But really. Do we have any evidence that lubrication is why engines seem to last longer nowadays? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM > No, it's because of advances in metalurgy, lubrication, > manufacturing, and to a VERY large extent, advances in engine > controls. I'm not going to disagree that engines seem to last twice what they used to, but is metallurgy really different? There's a lot more aluminum nowadays, and certainly too much plastic, but rubber is rubber and steel is steel and I don't think either got all that much better in the interim. Engine controls maybe. But they're mostly emission related nowadays. The actual danger zone parts are the oil pressure sensor, coolant temperature sensor, oil lever sensor, etc., and I don't think they're all that sophisticated compared to the days of yore, do you? > life, as along with the lead, phosphorous was also virtually > eliminated in the fuel. > This means a lot less acids in the oil, exhaust, etc. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... really? The fuel contributes to engine life? I don't dispute. I just don't compute. > is less fuel dilution - and electronic ignition and timing advance > just adds to the improvements. In 1959, the auto was still an > adolescent - it has matured over the ensuing decades in SO many ways. I don't disagree that the carburetor is gone, thank God, but it's still in airplanes and they seem to do fine with them (small planes that is). While EFI is great stuff, I don't see that the longevity of an engine is dependent on the fuel volatilization method. > Rust and corrosion control has come SO far, even since the eighties > that there is really no reason a car body should rust today - and the > bodies, although MUCH lighter, do last 2, 3, even 5 times as long. This one I agree with you on, but I blame Detroit for making crap that they *knew* was crap. Painting can't be all that sophisticated today compared to yesterday. It just can't be. They just did a lousy job before, I think. But then again, painting is a job I never did, so, maybe I didn't learn anything! :) > require a repaint in the old days - now MOST go to the scrapyard > wearing their original coat of paint - - - - even with water based > paints!!!! I wish I knew more about painting. > Often TWICE a year - spring and fall tuneups were common. I agree that points were a weak link that just had to go. I'm not sure why timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once locked down. I think they also used lower-voltage coils in those days, where the wires seemed paradoxically to require replacement more often. I remember once diagnosing a misfire where I accidentally worked until it got dark and then realized there was a light show going on with all the sparks to ground. Heh heh heh ... working on coils and ignition wires teaches a youngster with a steel screwdriver a *lot* about electricity wanting to get to ground! >>Now, they're "almost" lifetime parts because they don't exist. > Even spark plugs go 100,000 km plus - - - Oh yeah. I forgot about spark plugs. I had a two-stroke motorcycle, for example, which couldn't go five hundred miles on a set of plugs. Now you can easily go 100K where the technology isn't all that fancy on a plug. It's just a chunk of platinum-plated metal near a few J hooks of cold steel. I think the higher voltages helped, which, again, paradoxically, you'd think the higher coil voltages would eat the plugs faster ... not slower by the process of electrodialectric machining. > Better design, engine controls, lubricants, and no more leaded gas. Well, it's *something* that makes car engines last twice what they used to, but I don't see that we've nailed it yet. I still think it's simply that Japanaese cars existing made Detroit build better engines overall. > Most did - but there were (natable) exceptions. > Also, how long have you been driving? What is the oldest car you have > owned?? Most of us old timers have at the very least a million miles under our belts. When we were kids, all our cars started at 10 or 15 years old, where that was new to us. In my salesman days, a car lasted 3 years, but now I'm back to the 15 or 20 year range since I retired long ago. Such things change over time. >>Luckily, 2WD RWD cars spread out the "stuff" in manageable ways. > They ARE easier to repair - in general. I found that 2WD RWD cars are a LOT easier, for the most part, and also if you have the option, the six cylinder options when an 8-cylinder option exists or the 4 cylinder option when a 6 cylinder option exists is a Godsend because you have so much more room in that engine bay. >>Otherwise, time isn't the issue. > You don't have a wife???? She's somewhere in the garden, not the garage. The kids have kids already too, so they're off somewhere to play. I get to see them on Thanksgiving though. Thank God for holidays! You pay for their school. You pay for their grad school. And then you only get to see them on holidays. Or when they need their cars fixed! :) |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM rbowman wrote: > Replacement is fairly easy on a Sportster but Harley is very proud of > their belts, around $150 iirc. All things considered that's cheaper than > chains if you put significant miles on a bike. You're confusing me because you're talking about a drive system for the rear wheel, where there are three types on motorcycles a. Chain (most common) b. Shaft (common on beamers for example) c. Belt (common harleys I guess) We were talking about timing belts inside car engines. The problem with timing belts on some engines is when they break, the pistons can contact the valves, which is the dumbest bit of engineering I have ever seen in my life. In that case, I would agree that the suspense is what kills you because they may last 60K miles but they may not. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM > KD makes a special tool for that - at the value O put on skin and > suffering, cheap at twice the price This is the interesting thing about tools for working on cars. Very few of the common jobs require any special tools that you don't already have, which are the common tools that everyone has. Every once in a while, you need a special waterpump holding tool, or a special brake caliper hex wrench size or a special clutch spline alignment tool or a special balljoint separator tool or a special bearing puller or a special harmonic balancer puller or a special transmission jack. The nice thing is that the money you save on labor almost always has you more than break even on the tool costs, except in your very first jobs in your life when you're just a kid. When you're just a kid, you have to buy jack stands for the first time, and ramps for the first time and brakespring pliers for the first time and a dwellmeter and timing light for the first time and feeler gauges for the first time and a floor jack for the first time, and so on. Truth be told, you often buy the major tools twice, since you try to go cheap the first time, so, for example, you buy the tube-type cheaper $15 jack stands (the ones with holes drilled in a pipe) and finally, when you're older, you spring for the notched ones instead. Likewise you buy the small cheap floor jack, when years later you spring for the heavy duty one. The worst is that you buy the least amount of wrenches and sockets in the beginning, then you learn later (way later) that you ended up buying one by one a million extender bars and u joints and deep and shallow and impact sockets, that you should have just sprung for the $1000 set in the first place. But you never had the money when you bought the tools for the first time (just as you stored them in hand tool boxes until you sprung for the big boy years later). So, yeah, you buy tools twice sometimes, but that's only because you didn't have the money and you didn't have anyone to advise you when you were a kid. >>springs on the drums went. I couldn't believe how easy pads were; it >>took me longer to find the C-clamp than to do the work :-( > A cell phone camera makes all of that SO much simpler!!! Yup. The cellphone camera replaced pen and paper diagrams! |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM The Real Bev wrote: > The ones I did were simple. The hard part was remembering how the damn > springs on the drums went. I couldn't believe how easy pads were; it > took me longer to find the C-clamp than to do the work :-( That's the thing about brakes that gets me. Most people I know pay upwards of $1K for a 4-wheel brake job at the dealer, where (a) I would never go to the dealer, and (b) I would never pay even $100 for someone else to do a brake job. Most brake jobs are so easy that it's not funny since disc brakes are so easy to work on that it's not even close to funny. Drum brakes are harder simply because of the intricacies of the springs, but they're only harder because disc brakes are so easy. Pads cost about $50 per set and all you aim for is FF or GG or FG, or whatever cold/hot heat rating you want. That's another thing about doing a job yourself, which is parts selection. If you do it yourself, you have to buy the parts, and if you buy the parts you figure out what matters. Most of us follow the same rules for buying parts, do we not? a. First we figure out what the OEM parts are, and, then, b. We figure out how much it costs for better parts. Sometimes the OEM parts are the best, but just as often, the aftermarket parts are better. In the case of brake pads, we look up the cold/hot friction ratings for the OEM pads. Let's say that they're FG. Then we look at the aftermarket for better pads. Let's say we find GG pads. We look at the cost difference. And we usually buy the better pad. As for rotors, there's a truckload of hype around slotted, drilled, drilled and slotted, etc., where at least motorcycle rotors are stainless steel and where looks matter a lot. On cars, looks only matter if you have wheels that show off your brakes, so drilled and slotted or all that other purely pretty stuff doesn't matter. Solid is the way to go. The cheaper the better. For example, you can get Brembo rotors for less than the OEM rotors, where a rotor is a rotor is a rotor. About $50 per axle for pads, and about $50 per wheel for rotors, and you're out the door with parts (a few dabs of high-temperature grease later). Notice that when you do the work yourself, you LEARN what matters. If you're smart about it, you don't fall for the marketing hype. And one more thing. Since you do the work yourself, you buy the tools, where brake jobs don't necessarily take special tools (although calipers sometimes need oddball-sized hex wrenches on German cars). All you need is a mic to measure thickness and a dial gauge and stand to measure runout, and if you're doing drums, two types of brake-spring pliers, and you're good to go with tools. One more thing, the word "brake warp" or "rotor warp" is banished from your vocabulary. Anyone who uses those two words, is simply proving they're an utter fool. That's the kind of stuff you learn by doing the job yourself. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:32AM > More quality in the manufacture along with the fact that a lot of the > things that used to fail were replaced by computers that do a far > better job that Mr Venturi. I'm going to have to agree that I think the only thing that really changed over time was the quality. I think Japan took half of Detroit's profits, and that was the sole determinant that made Detroit start thinking about quality. If that's the case, you have to hand it to Japan for even coming up with the idea of quality in the first place. > When was the last time you replaced the old "points plugs and > condenser" That used to be a once or twice a year thing. Wow. My timing light is still packed away, along with the dwellmeter. Every once in a while I use the feeler gauges that I used to use for points, but for something else. Even the spark plug gapper is used, but nowadays only on the home tools like the leaf blower. I have a contraption that has a heavy duty switch for "bumping" the engine. I forget even why I *built* that thing. Why did we bump the engine? I forget why. I also still have a dial gauge that I screwed into the number one cylinder on a motorcycle to time the points on the bike where there is no concept of a timing light. The points open in millimeters before TDC. It's rare though for tools to go out of style. I'm still using my first Christmas gift of Sears Craftsman open-end wrenches, for example. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Nov 04 11:41PM -0400 "RS Wood" <rswood@is.invalid> wrote in message news:otm0no$3eb$2@solani.org... >>replace compared to today? > No lead and phosphorous in the gas makes a BIG difference - as does > more complete combustion. Stainless steel doesn't hurt either. Yet there is a lot more aluminum in engines nowadays. I don't see how the lead matters although we all went through the phase where we switched from leaded cars to lead-free cars and had to change pumps in the process. I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection. +++++++++++++++++++ The lead fowled the plugs pretty quickly. Now they can last 100k miles. |
| rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Nov 04 11:46PM -0400 RS Wood wrote on 11/4/2017 5:49 PM: > The only plastic that I know of which lasts forever outside is whatever > plastic the garbage company uses for those blue, green, and gray wheeled > bins! That's your standard? Things have to last "forever"??? > I wish *all* plastic things were made out of *that* plastic, especially > pool tools. You can ask about the materials when you buy stuff. It's not the plastic, but whether the plastic has UV resistance additives. > system for longer periods of time helped. > For example, in the olden days, how many rotted out "mufflers" did you > replace compared to today? I still have to replace the exhaust system ever four years. That part hasn't changed. If you know anything about why they fail, you would understand the only alternative is stainless steel which is *much* more expensive. You could get a stainless steel exhaust system the first time you replace it, but you would need to keep the vehicle for twenty more years to make it pay off. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:47AM >>I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting >>longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection. > Lead free along with EFI is why plugs last forever. That's an enigma to me, but if I think it through, EFI allowed for higher voltages which I'd think would melt a spark plug even more than the lower voltages, but maybe what happened is a higher voltage zap keeps the plugs from fouling. The zap may even be shorter for all I know. The lack of tetraethyl lead, I guess, besides meaning harder valve seats, means fewer deposits on the plugs I guess, where deposits that conduct electricity cause the voltage to bleed off down the center electrode to the threads. Is that how the lead and efi helped plugs last forever? The enigma is that the higher voltage "should" eat the metal faster. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:55AM rickman wrote: >> plastic the garbage company uses for those blue, green, and gray wheeled >> bins! > That's your standard? Things have to last "forever"??? I leave plastic stuff outside and within a year or two, it crumbles in my hands. So two years is too short. Meanwhile, the garbage bins last forever outside. Why can they make a garbage bin last forever but not a Costco picnic table? >> pool tools. > You can ask about the materials when you buy stuff. It's not the plastic, > but whether the plastic has UV resistance additives. Is that what makes those garbage bins last forever outside? If so, that's what I want in my picnic table from Costco! And in all the pool equipment. > hasn't changed. If you know anything about why they fail, you would > understand the only alternative is stainless steel which is *much* more > expensive. I used to patch mufflers, like we all did. And we all know what a pain it was to get the old ones off. Forget about those u-bolt nuts ever twisting off. But I haven't replaced a muffler in decades. Why? I'm not sure why. > You could get a stainless steel exhaust system the first time > you replace it, but you would need to keep the vehicle for twenty more years > to make it pay off. I don't even look at the exhaust anymore, it's that reliable. I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel. Is it not? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 03:55AM tom wrote: > The lead fowled the plugs pretty quickly. > Now they can last 100k miles. I didn't know that the lead deposits fouled the plugs but it makes sense since lead will conduct (but that's only elemental lead which tetraethyl lead may or may not end up as on a plug). Having had a two stroke motorcycle, I know all about fouled plugs, where I still have, somewhere, a cigarette-lighter-socket operated spark plug sandblaster, which I forgot all about until you mentioned this plug fouling stuff. We all used to gap plugs and file the electrode to get flatter tops and sharper corners because that's where the electrical lines of force concentrate. But that's also where the heat of the zap eats away the metal. I suspect the platinum coating made a big difference in the plug life, but I don't know that for a fact. The multiple electrodes may have helped although only one will carry the spark in general. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Nov 04 11:55PM -0400 "RS Wood" <rswood@is.invalid> wrote in message news:otm0o7$3eb$9@solani.org... clare@snyder.on.ca wrote: I agree that points were a weak link that just had to go. I'm not sure why timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once locked down. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The rubbing block wears down. The points gap gets smaller. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:04AM tom wrote: > The rubbing block wears down. The points gap gets smaller. Yeah. I forgot. I even have in my toolbox a set of distributor bolt wrenches, one curved and the other kind of L shaped. I wonder if I'll ever find a use for them again? I should put them in the same box as the dwellmeter, timing light, ignition bumper, spark plug gap gauges, spark plug sandblaster and grease gun. What's odd is that those are all *oldtimer tools* where I don't think there are any newtimer tools other than a good OBD scanner and, if you're so inclined, the bluetooth and computer based ECU readers. Are there any newtimer repair tools that we never needed in the past that we need now? I remember I have a fuel-injection light bulb which snapped into the fuel injector but that hasn't been used itself in decades. Other than OBD scanners, what is a *new* tool that we have needed that we didn't use in the days of yore? |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 12:08AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:11 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >pumps in the process. >I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting >longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection. That's because you are not an automotive professional, and you have not studied the subject. Leaded gas, without additional additives, would quickly foul the engine with lead. They use a scavenging agent to get rid of the lead. Those scavenging agents, such as ethyl Dibromide, and 12 dichlorethane, These compounds form corrosive byproducts which accumulate in the exhaust and in the crankcase. Lead oxide was the main cause of short valve life and also contributed to ring wear. Lead Btomide wasn't much better, but it boiled off at a lower temperature than lead oxide.. Other additives were also used in the leaded gas era, which are not used any more. The stainless steel I was referring to was the exhaust system. Aluminum conducts heat a lot better than iron or steel, so aluminum heads allow higher compression ratios without causing detonation than iron heads. Aluminum is also a lot lighter, reducing fuel consumption. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 12:13AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:18 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >> Stuff like that. >Oh. That's interesting. What you're saying is that the manufacturers are >using computers to make cars, which helps make better cars. The cars are also VERY heavily comuterized. Every car sold since 1996 has more computing powewr onboard than was used to put the first man on the moon. >You're right but I don't understand why we used to pack wheel bearings >periodically and now we don't. Who doesn't remember glopping grease on your >palm and then slapping a bearing through that grease? The new bearings are sealed, and lubricated with better greaase than existed in the sixties - a lot of it a product of the space race. >Likewise, who hasn't squirted grease into a ball joint until it squirted >back out of the pregnant rubber cup making farting sounds? Or a driveshaft >u-joint where is just squirted out noiselessly. Damaging the boot on the ball joint - letting dirt and water in. Again, better materials, and better lubricants, have made "sealed for life" ball joints etc last longer than the ones you greased every 3 months. >What's with bearings nowadays. Why don't wheel bearings need to be packed >anymore and u-joints not need lubrication and ball joints not need it? >What did they do differently? EVERYTHING. |
| rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: Nov 04 10:15PM -0600 On 11/4/2017 9:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > The problem with timing belts on some engines is when they break, the > pistons can contact the valves, which is the dumbest bit of engineering I > have ever seen in my life. A belt is a belt. The point I was trying to make, albeit awkwardly, was visual inspection of the belt tells you nothing in most cases. You replace the thing after N miles based on the mean time to failure. If you have a timing belt that fails before that and an interference engine you can plan on replacing valves too. There are many things on an automobile that give you hints they should be replaced; timing belts just break. Timing chains used to be less dependable but the newer ones are greatly improved. I'm happy my Toyota has a chain. I haven't researched it but I do believe some manufacturers are going back to chains. Belts are cheaper but pissed off customers aren't. |
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