| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:27AM -0400 >Illegal because the patches are crap and the rest of the muffler won't last >another six months. My mufflers don't get leaks, the flange breaks off on >the pipe. Try fixing that. I do it all the time. Cut off the flanges and fit a pipe over the joint. Clamp or weld the sleave. Use stainless pipe and stainless clamps. The flanges rust off because they are welded with mild steel amd/or are not passivated after welding. >> I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel. >> Is it not? >No, it's not. It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years. What crap are you driving??? Most have been stainless steel for over 20myears. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 05:27AM The Real Bev wrote: > you kept putting off changing the pads until they stopped squealing and > the backing plates started grinding deep (1/4") grooves into the rotors. > Amazingly enough, braking worked just fine until the hogging-in started. I'm confused by what you wrote, especially in context with the words "warp" when rotors never warp (or almost never, and never in terms of mattering). So anyone who *thinks* rotors warp, is an idiot. The replacing of rotors is also determined by idiots most of the time because people don't have the concept of measuring the thickness because many people don't have the concept of owning a micrometer. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone say to replace the rotors on the second pad change, where the real answer is to replace the rotors when they are worn down to the minimum thickness (everything else being ok). In general, the rotors are ok except for pad deposition which is solely a driver-caused problem (long story later if people ask). Sure, grooves can be there but gouges have to be the size of the Grand Canyon to matter (just look up the specs, you'll see) so grooves are, in reality, not what makes rotors into paperweights. Sure cracks can happen, glazed hard spots can happen, and yes, even warpage can happen but realistically it's not gonna happen. So it's thickness that matters. (Excess runout is usually something else and that's what the dial gauge is for anyway.) In practice, the way you determine when/if to replace rotors is so simple that it's not funny. If they're thinner than the stamping says on the edge, then you replace them. If they have one thousandth of an inch more than the stamping says, you keep them (they'll certainly lose that thousandth of an inch but the stamping takes that into account). I get about a thousandth of an inch per thousand miles roughly. Pads? I wear them down to the metal backing. Well, just one moment before it reaches the pad backing. Although that means replacing the $15 sensor sometimes, if I'm lazy. The beauty of doing your own brakes is that they don't ever worry you. You do them when you do them. You can wear them down to the bone. And then you just do them. The only rule is that if anyone tells you their rotors warped, run (do not walk) run away fast. Don't look back. Run. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:29AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 04:59:32 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >All that stuff makes it WEAKER (which is bad when it matters). >All that stuff makes it less reliable (which is bad too). >KISS. I call that crap "knuckle busters" |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:33AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 04:59:33 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >is so easy to figure out. >For one, we still don't know what material the garbage bins are made out of >(coating or otherwise). Most are made of polypropelene. Some are made of Polyethelene. The table was likely made of ABS orPVC >What I'm saying is that it's not so simple. >I'm also assuming that NOBODY here knows what the answer should be. >Do you? Most are made of polypropelene. Some are made of Polyethelene. The table was likely made of ABS orPVC |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 05:47AM > Not so. There is a BIG difference between some good rotors and some > cheap one - bad metalurfy will cause hard spotting, and glazing and > pitting and warping. The trick is finding the good ones - There are very few things I'm gonna disagree with you on. Just like the garbage-bin guy, it sounds great to tell me to buy the right plastic (or coating) after asking what's the plastic (or coating) used - but in practice that's shit advice because there are a billion kinds of plastic and you have to know which are the better ones. Same with rotors. I've heard everything there is to hear from people telling me about crappy Chinese rotors. While I generally go Brembo or Meyle, if someone else gave me a good price, I'd go with them. If I hear one more guy tell me to buy Zimmerman drilled and slotted, I'm gonna go postal on him. He's the same guy that insists that rotor warp caused his brake-related vibration at speed. Run, do not walk, run away from those people. Same with anyone who tells me to buy good solid rotors. I have nothing against quality but you can't tell a good solid rotor from a bad solid rotor if they're the same thickness, same cooling veins, etc. You just can't. How are you gonna know the metallurgy? Really? You can't. You just can't. Unless you give me a way to tell (other than just saying a brand name), then I'm not gonna believe the advice ... not because it's not true advice ... but because it's like saying don't breathe when someone farts. You can't give advice that is unusable in practice. Specifically, how are you gonna know a good rotor metallurgy from bad rotor metallurgy if all you have are two unbranded rotors in your hands that are the same size and cooling vein arrangement? > Or retractor tools for rear disc brakes with integral e-brakes. I forgot about that tool. Yup. $10 and you have a brake-pad-sized C clamp that pushes the piston(s) back into the calipers. Thanks for reminding me of that tool. I only have one, which is fine - but someday I'll buy a second one so that I can do both wheels on an axle at the same time. :) > No, some rotors DO warp. So do some drums. Most "warped" rotors, > however, are either pitted or hard spotted. Nope. But I'm not ever going to say that a rotor "can't" warp (because it can). But I will tell you I have heard ten thousand times that some idiot says his rotors warped and each time I asked him how he *measured* it, and guess what? Never once in my life have I found a single person who has *measured* the warp. You know why? They don't even know *how* to measure rotor warp. They don't have the tools to measure rotor warp (Hint: It requires a flat benchtop and feeler gauges and it's not hard - but they don't know that because they didn't measure a single thing.) Nobody but nobody who claims their rotors warped actually measured a single thing. They lied. Worse, they don't even realize they lied. It's like the original sin. They have it and they don't even know it because they were born with it. Street rotors just don't get hot enough to warp. They just don't. It's pad deposition I tell ya. Now it could be other things too. But I'll betcha 90% of the time it's uneven pad deposition. And 0.0000000000000001% of the time, it's actually rotor warp. What makes the morons think they're geniuses is that the short-term solution to both pad deposition and rotor warp is the same. It's the long-term solution that is different. That is, while the short term solution to both is the same, the long term solution to rotor warp is completely different than the long term solution to pad deposition. And that's the shame because these two solutions are nothing alike even though most people do the wrong solution since street rotors just don't warp (in practice) because they can't get hot enough to warp. >>That's the kind of stuff you learn by doing the job yourself. > The kind of stuff you learn working on hundreds of cars a year for 1/4 > century, and supervizing a shopfull of mechanics for a decade. Nope. Street rotors don't warp in practice. They don't get hot enough to warp. Look it up. I'm not gonna disagree with you on too many things, but if ANYONE is gonna tell me their street rotors warped, I want them to tell me at what temperature steel gets that flimsy and I want them to tell me how they MEASURED the warp (because never once have I found anyone who said they warped who knew those two answers). Sure you can *LOOK* up the answer. But they never did the measurement so they can't ever tell me offhand what I already know they don't know. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:52AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 05:13:47 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >> and basically un-necessary - as most engines will go over 3000 miles >> without using ANY measurable amount of oil. >Gotta agree. Mine leaks not a drop. Doesn't burn any either - and it's 0w20, not 20w50. >> control and metal primers etc - not to mention seam sealers. Goes WAY >> beyond the surface coating, color and shine. >Gotta be true because rust buckets don't seem to exist anymore. Except Mazdas, Chevys, and Dodge trucks - - - >I'm sure engineers fret about every little thing, but pretty much you buy >the right one and put it in. I never found anything useful about changing >the heat ratings. It's amazing to me that we don't gap them anymore though. They now come pre-gapped - and the gap is HUGE - .060 to .085" instead of .028 to .035 - so accuracy is relative. They don't wear/erode any more, so you don't "re-gap" them any more, By the time the gap has changed the combustion seals are getting iffy too, so younjust replace them. >You'd wonder why the gap mattered in the days of yore and now it doesn't >matter. I don't get that. With 20,000 volts, the gap was critical With 60,000 - not so much!!! >> vehicles over the 200,000 mile mark in the past. >Yep. 10 years was about it. Now it's 20 years. >Double. Or even 30 >Not gonna take you up on this one. There's no such thing as 'working >harder'. Just not gonna fly with me. The torque curve is the torque curve >and the gears do the fixing of that for me. When I drive a 2.3 liter 4 cyl ranger down the 401 , my foot is pretty much on the floor, the manifold vacuum is zero, and the engine is working it's poor tail off. The 4 liter V6, is just loafing, throttle barely open - manifold pressure about 13-15 inches - barely working. A LOT easier on the engine. The gearing is such that the 4 cyl is turning 3000 RPM, the 4 liter 2200, and a 5.7 liter iforce Tundra about 1200 RPM at the same road speed. Makes a BIG difference on engine wear and life. As for "working harder" - specific power output - the amount of torque and horsepower per cubic inch of displacement - Call it whatbyou may, but a small engine "works a lot harder" than a big engine to do the same work. - and generally doesn't last as long. >they were born. When did YOU first leave the country? I think I did when I >was in my thirties. Maybe late twenties. Boy oh boy though, did the >airplanes have service! I left Canada for Africa at 21. I had been to the USA many times by then. I was out of country for 2 years. My daghter turned 16 in France and had travelled to Mexico several times before that. She was an exchange student in France in Grade 10 >But that's another difference in the days of yore! Yup - no service on planes now unless you pay for it through the nose !! |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 05:53AM >>All that stuff makes it less reliable (which is bad too). >>KISS. > I call that crap "knuckle busters" Yup. It's gonna break when they are applying the most force. All the kinky tools I just smile at when I see them in the store. Basic stuff for me. The only kinky things I need are the slimmer wrenches, the longer ones, the curved ones, the angled ones, etc., all of which are for the toughest jobs and where I generally buy them as oneoffs as needed. Adjustable wrenches should be banned as a menace to society. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 05:57AM > A good low impedence multitester, and occaisionally a "power > injector", and occaisionally a logic tester (generally part of the > power injector) I have a logic tester for TTL circuits (TI 7100 series stuff, as I recall), but nothing for a car's "logic". A good Fluke DMM is de rigueur though, I agree, for any homeowner. And an attachment to measure the starter amperage. But my point is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of "new fangled" tools that we need to work on for a car. It's the same old tools, with minor exceptions of emissions and ECU/DMU/ABS control, isn't it? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:14AM >>Gotta agree. Mine leaks not a drop. > Doesn't burn any either - and it's 0w20, not 20w50. The whole viscosity thing is a red herring where I live. You probably live in really cold areas, where it matters. Where I live, a straight 30 or 40 would work just fine. The whole "W" thing only lasts for a minute or two so it's gotta be cold to matter even the slightest bit. >>Gotta be true because rust buckets don't seem to exist anymore. > Except Mazdas, Chevys, and Dodge trucks - - - Funny, but I never had any of them. I never had a truck though. Just cars and vans and SUVs, and, oh, yeah, station wagons in the days of yore. > They now come pre-gapped - and the gap is HUGE - .060 to .085" > instead of .028 to .035 - so accuracy is relative. Yeah. Plugs got easier. a. They last forever b. You don't gap them anymore (except in home tools) > They don't wear/erode any more, so you don't "re-gap" them any more, > By the time the gap has changed the combustion seals are getting iffy > too, so younjust replace them. And they're still cheap as they always were. > With 20,000 volts, the gap was critical With 60,000 - not so much!!! Yup. High voltage is nice. You'd think it would wear the metal, but with platinum, it doesn't. > working. A LOT easier on the engine. The gearing is such that the 4 > cyl is turning 3000 RPM, the 4 liter 2200, and a 5.7 liter iforce > Tundra about 1200 RPM at the same road speed. The I4 and V6 engines are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT engines. Take Toyota's 3RZFE and the 5RZFE (from memory). Completely different engines. Both last forever. Sure, one makes for more BHP, but in reality the gearing handles all that. Besides, did I mention they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT engines? You can't say one "lasts longer" than the other when all you're comparing is the external size of the engine. All I'm saying is that the I4 leaves more room in the engine bay than does the V6. You don't argue with that, so we can accept that as a fact. Now you're saying the I4 works harder and hence won't last as long, but I just don't take that on face value because I might not have mentioned this yet, but they're completely different engines. Whether they last longer or not will depend on those billion completely different things, and not on whether they're working harder cruising at 60mph on the freeway or pulling into or out of your driveway. How long an engine lasts has more to do with how many cold starts it has than what you call "working harder". Besides, I might not have mentioned this, but they're completely different engines, so you can't compare one thing and say that one thing will make one last longer or shorter. You just can't. At least not with a serious look on your face you can't. > Makes a BIG difference on engine wear and life. Nope. Not gonna buy that elixer today. Logic prevails. There are so many OTHER factors that matter far more to engine life than the size of the engine displacement. Just too many. > As for "working harder" - specific power output - the amount of > torque and horsepower per cubic inch of displacement - I'm not gonna argue that the V6 has develops more BHP than the I4 but I am gonna let you know a little secret. Two little secrets in fact. 1. They are completely different engines. 2. Even if they were the same engine, there are so many factors that matter MORE to engine life than displacement that displacement isn't a major factor in engine life anyway. Now if you told me one engine had 10K cold starts and 20K short trips, while the other only had 1K cold starts and had mostly long trips, then *that* would be a factor in engine life. But even then, it would only be one of a zillion factors. Displacement is just not gonna be a major determinant in engine life. > Call it whatbyou may, but a small engine "works a lot harder" than a > big engine to do the same work. - and generally doesn't last as long. You can sell that one to other people. Just not to me. Displacement is just not gonna be a major determinant in engine life. >>But that's another difference in the days of yore! > Yup - no service on planes now unless you pay for it through the nose And even then, you still get no service. :) |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:20AM > The platinum is NOT plating - it is a platinum chip welded to the > (usually copper cored) steel electrode. Many have plat chips on the > ground electrode now too. Good to know, I didn't even know to *think* about how they did it. Thanks! |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:29AM > I gave up on patching mufflers after the first one. I agree also. I used to patch the junction between the pipes with that white stuff. Yuck. Never worked for more than a week (to get through inspection). I did patch a holed gas tank once. Amazingly, it worked for the remaining life of the car. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:29AM > I have not changed an exhaust system or a muffler in about 20 years - > and my current vehicles are 16 and 22 years old. But then I buy REAL > cars that come with stainless exhausts from the factory. My experience exactly. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:29AM > Most have been stainless steel for over 20 years. I agree with you on this. I haven't had, AFAIK, a non SS exhaust in decades. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:29AM > Most are made of polypropelene. > Some are made of Polyethelene. The table was likely made of ABS orPVC If it's that simple, what happened to the "UV coating" someone suggested? Anyway, if it's that simple, I'm all for it. Just like getting oil is simple (you aim for the lowest spread in viscosity and the highest SX rating alphabetically) and just like getting pads is simple (you aim for the highest cold/hot friction you can get) I'm all for simplicity in specifications. So your recommendation is: a. Polypropylene or Polyethylene b. but not ABS or Polyvinylchloride If that works, I'm ok with that. Simplicity is good. When it exists. Still ... what about UV coating? For example, eyeglasses get complex when it comes to UV coatings because some plastics don't need it while others do (although I always argue that naked eyeballs don't come with UV coatings so why do people with glasses need them when people without glasses don't need them?). |
| rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Nov 05 01:33AM -0500 RS Wood wrote on 11/5/2017 12:59 AM: > I'm also assuming that NOBODY here knows what the answer should be. > Do you? > What chemical are we looking for? I'd have to do a little digging, but it's not an impossible question to answer. Google is your friend, but more importantly, you won't get a useful answer unless you can find out what plastic the table is made of before you buy it. I am currently designing something that will be used outside and needs to be clear. Initially I was going to use polycarbonate as it is very strong. But it is not very tolerant of UV light unless coated, so I'm going with acrylic which withstands UV without coatings. >> they made a lot of money selling the same crap they sold last year in spite >> of the few who returned them. > Luckily, Costco takes anything back (except electronics), even years later. I know, I returned a lawn mower 10 years later. In my defense, it actually quit after two years and I got ticked off and shoved it in a shed. I couldn't find anyone I trusted who could work on a Honda mower, so I hired someone to mow the lawn. Eventually I cleaned out the shed and took the mower back to Costco. They didn't accept it back without... discussion, but I repeatedly referred them to their own policy written on the wall I was facing. So don't think Costco will honor the return policy completely. >>> Is it not? >> No, it's not. It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years. > My bimmer is approaching 20 years on the same exhaust system. Maybe they used stainless, but you paid for it, no? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
| rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Nov 05 01:35AM -0500 >> No, it's not. It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years. > What crap are you driving??? Most have been stainless steel for over > 20myears. A 20 year old Toyota T100 with 240,000 miles. Is that your typical crap? -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
| The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Nov 04 11:37PM -0700 >>30+ years ago. Ratchet box wrench? > Nope - just a real shallow socket on a steel bar about 1/8 x 1/2 x > 16" I may have seen a tool like that somewhere and wondered what it was for :-( I could only move the wrench in a <90 degree arc before it bumped into immovable objects and I think that 16" might have been too long -- I might have thought of slipping a hunk of pipe over the wrench if that was possible or helpful. Putting the wrench on the bolt was the hard part -- my fingers were right down between the fan and the bolts. Never again! -- Cheers, Bev "The almost universal access to higher education here in the US has ruined a lot of potentially good manual laborers." -- Bob Hunt |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 06:39AM rickman wrote: > answer. Google is your friend, but more importantly, you won't get a useful > answer unless you can find out what plastic the table is made of before you > buy it. That's my point. I have bought stuff from TAP Plastics for example, and that's all they sell, and even THEY often have trouble telling me what the plastic is that I'm buying. Not only do you have to know what plastic (and coating) you want, but you also have to ask someone who knows what they are selling. It works for eyeglasses, for some reason, but I doubt it's gonna be easy to figure out the plastic on anything else that easily (at least not when you're in the store). > clear. Initially I was going to use polycarbonate as it is very strong. > But it is not very tolerant of UV light unless coated, so I'm going with > acrylic which withstands UV without coatings. I get your point, which is that there are plastics which handle the sunlight (which I agree since my garbage cans handle it better than anythin else I've ever seen that is stored outside). You just have to know the answer. And the people who sell the stuff have to know the answer. |
| The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Nov 04 11:46PM -0700 On 11/04/2017 10:27 PM, RS Wood wrote: >> Amazingly enough, braking worked just fine until the hogging-in started. > I'm confused by what you wrote, especially in context with the words "warp" > when rotors never warp (or almost never, and never in terms of mattering). Just an aside. > So anyone who *thinks* rotors warp, is an idiot. It might have happened a little on my mom's (end eventually mine) 88 Caddy. Slight vibration when braking, but they felt OK. Until 2 of the calipers seized 8 years later, of course :-( POS, I'll never own another GM product. > Sure, grooves can be there but gouges have to be the size of the Grand > Canyon to matter (just look up the specs, you'll see) so grooves are, in > reality, not what makes rotors into paperweights. These looked like a high-school first-time lathe project. Each of the steel projections on the backing plate had dug out its own trench. Godawful noise, but the brakes still worked fine so I figured I could wait another month :-( (Not the Caddy, this was a 68/9 LTD.) -- Cheers, Bev "The almost universal access to higher education here in the US has ruined a lot of potentially good manual laborers." -- Bob Hunt |
| rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Nov 05 02:04AM -0500 RS Wood wrote on 11/5/2017 1:29 AM: > some plastics don't need it while others do (although I always argue that > naked eyeballs don't come with UV coatings so why do people with glasses > need them when people without glasses don't need them?). Do some research. Polyethylene is an incomplete description. It can be high density (milk cartons and canoes/kayaks and some lawn furniture) or low density (and a few other newer, specialty forms). Both types are susceptible to UV damage unless stabilizers are added. I'm not so familiar with polypropylene and UV. I know most plastics are susceptible unless additives are used. There are lots of references available... read! -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 06:47PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 9:37 AM, RS Wood wrote: > I think it's either caster, then camber, then toe? > Or it might (offhand) be the other way around? > If toe is last, then unloading, adjusting, reloading makes more sense. Toe is last. Adjustments to camber will alter toe. Adjustments to toe will not alter camber. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 06:58PM +1100 >> I think it's either caster, then camber, then toe? >> Or it might (offhand) be the other way around? >> If toe is last, then unloading, adjusting, reloading makes more sense. BTW, how's the camber scrub issue going with your vehicle? Get it sorted yet? -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:18PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > pumps in the process. > I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting > longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection. Positive crankcase ventilation systems were the start of the improvements that led to long oil life, hence longer engine life. Add to that better metals, better combustion processes, fuel injection, computer control, electronic ignition systems. Getting rid of the carburetor was a big improvement. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:23PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > You're right but I don't understand why we used to pack wheel bearings > periodically and now we don't. Who doesn't remember glopping grease on your > palm and then slapping a bearing through that grease? Better seals, better greases, better bearing materials - they allcombine. > Likewise, who hasn't squirted grease into a ball joint until it squirted > back out of the pregnant rubber cup making farting sounds? Or a driveshaft > u-joint where is just squirted out noiselessly. What can allow grease out can let contaminants in. Also, ball joints are made of much better materials these days. > What's with bearings nowadays. Why don't wheel bearings need to be packed > anymore and u-joints not need lubrication and ball joints not need it? A u-joint that doesn't have angular movement *will* need lubricating. The needle rollers in a u-joint must roll a little else the grease will dry up. > What did they do differently? Better seals. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:26PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > longevity? > I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't see how they play a role in engine > longevity other than in the tuneup arena where they were an immense help. They control the spark timing to prevent detonation and pre-ignition. The small amount of combustion detonation sufficient to trigger the knock sensor serves to remove potentially harmful combustion chamber deposits. -- Xeno |
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