| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:32PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > u-joints and suspension balljoints. > But really. Do we have any evidence that lubrication is why engines seem to > last longer nowadays? The removal of the carburetor meant that the sump wasn't being contaminated by fuel wash from incomplete combustion when the engine is cold. The much finer fuel spray from injectors ensured reliable cold start and improved warmup time. Positive crankcase ventilation removed any acidic components and prevented carbon buildup in the oil. -- Xeno |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Nov 05 01:34AM -0700 On Sunday, 5 November 2017 03:32:26 UTC, RS Wood wrote: > The actual danger zone parts are the oil pressure sensor, coolant > temperature sensor, oil lever sensor, etc., and I don't think they're all > that sophisticated compared to the days of yore, do you? the computers that read them are though. They can tell when the sensor isn't behaving right. > This one I agree with you on, but I blame Detroit for making crap that they > *knew* was crap. Painting can't be all that sophisticated today compared to > yesterday. It just can't be. They just did a lousy job before, I think. competition has meant better rustproofing is required to maintain a good reputation > timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time > the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once > locked down. the points gap changed due to sparking & physical wear in the mechanism. That changed the timing. > Heh heh heh ... working on coils and ignition wires teaches a youngster > with a steel screwdriver a *lot* about electricity wanting to get to > ground! :) > steel. I think the higher voltages helped, which, again, paradoxically, > you'd think the higher coil voltages would eat the plugs faster ... not > slower by the process of electrodialectric machining. plug gap opening up or carbon on the insulator could take out the spark on old ignition systems. Not so much now. > but I don't see that we've nailed it yet. > I still think it's simply that Japanaese cars existing made Detroit build > better engines overall. Very much. Also decades of experience, time proves what works well & what doesn't. NT |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:40PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time > the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once > locked down. The timing changes because the points gap alters. Put in an electronic aftermarket replacement for points with, say, an optical or magnetic sensor, and the timing never varied. Except for gear wear on the distributor but that's over a very long time span. >> Even spark plugs go 100,000 km plus - - - > Oh yeah. I forgot about spark plugs. I had a two-stroke motorcycle, for > example, which couldn't go five hundred miles on a set of plugs. Two strokes are always harder on spark plugs. > steel. I think the higher voltages helped, which, again, paradoxically, > you'd think the higher coil voltages would eat the plugs faster ... not > slower by the process of electrodialectric machining. A lot of technology in spark plug, especially in the metalurgical side. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:44PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > pretty stuff doesn't matter. Solid is the way to go. The cheaper the > better. For example, you can get Brembo rotors for less than the OEM > rotors, where a rotor is a rotor is a rotor. You understand the efficacy of slotted and/or drilled rotors the first time you experience brake fade. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:48PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:47 PM, RS Wood wrote: > voltages which I'd think would melt a spark plug even more than the lower > voltages, but maybe what happened is a higher voltage zap keeps the plugs > from fouling. The zap may even be shorter for all I know. In the emissions world, a longer zap is what you need. A short zap can lead to a misfire so that's a no no. In order to get a longer term spark, there arose a need to go to high energy ignition systems. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:26PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > longevity? > I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't see how they play a role in engine > longevity other than in the tuneup arena where they were an immense help. They control the spark timing to prevent detonation and pre-ignition. The small amount of combustion detonation sufficient to trigger the knock sensor serves to remove potentially harmful combustion chamber deposits. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:52PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 3:04 PM, RS Wood wrote: > I wonder if I'll ever find a use for them again? I should put them in the > same box as the dwellmeter, timing light, ignition bumper, spark plug gap > gauges, spark plug sandblaster and grease gun. What, no vacuum gauge? > injector but that hasn't been used itself in decades. > Other than OBD scanners, what is a *new* tool that we have needed that we > didn't use in the days of yore? *High impedance digital multimeters*. Anyone who dicks around electrical stuff on a car these days with a test light is just looking for trouble. A digital oscilloscope would be nice. Also some logic probes. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:56PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 3:15 PM, rbowman wrote: > improved. I'm happy my Toyota has a chain. I haven't researched it but I > do believe some manufacturers are going back to chains. Belts are > cheaper but pissed off customers aren't. I have Toyotas precisely because they have a chain. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 07:57PM +1100 > (mainly the elimination of the choke and better atomization of fuel > using port injection. GDI makes it almost an order of magnitude better > again. Bzzztt. GDI has brought the scourge of carbon buildup back. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 08:09PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 3:38 PM, RS Wood wrote: > 1. Better lubricants and seals > 2. Better fuels (for example detergents and loss of lead) > Interesting that it's not better design of engines. It's also that but in order to understand the improvements you would need to delve into the books on automotive engine design such as this one I have in my library here; http://www.springer.com/la/book/9783211377628 -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 08:12PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 3:40 PM, rickman wrote: > I bet you didn't even ask about the materials used in the table. I can > assure you the city who bought the bin asked what it was made of. So > the fault, really, is yours. The city would have *specified* the bin requirements in the tender specs. > Illegal because the patches are crap and the rest of the muffler won't > last another six months. My mufflers don't get leaks, the flange breaks > off on the pipe. Try fixing that. That's because the *internal* piping has rotted away placing *all* loading on the flange. >> I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel. >> Is it not? > No, it's not. It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years. Hmmm, Last car I had for 8 years, never touched the exhaust system. -- Xeno |
| Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au>: Nov 05 08:22PM +1100 On 5/11/2017 4:13 PM, RS Wood wrote: > the heat ratings. It's amazing to me that we don't gap them anymore though. > You'd wonder why the gap mattered in the days of yore and now it doesn't > matter. I don't get that. High energy ignition systems, platinum electrodes. > was in my thirties. Maybe late twenties. Boy oh boy though, did the > airplanes have service! > But that's another difference in the days of yore! I first worked overseas when I was 26 years old. -- Xeno |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:08PM Xeno wrote: > What, no vacuum gauge? Ah. yes. I should get off my duff and just open the damn "tuneup" box. <https://imgur.com/a/aRivO> Ouch! Look at my horrid welds from circa late sixties early seventies! <https://i.imgur.com/gCg8snj.jpg> Here is the kit, neatly packed away, awaiting for my burial chamber: <https://i.imgur.com/15legK6.jpg> The vacuum gauge is at bottom right, next to the dwellmeter: <https://i.imgur.com/aHSy27T.jpg> Compression tester at left & dial-gauge TDC measurement gauge at left: <https://i.imgur.com/qkPfJ8e.jpg> Assorted feeler and gap gauges at top: <https://i.imgur.com/XSW3lhK.jpg> Does that kit look familiar to you? > *High impedance digital multimeters*. Anyone who dicks around electrical > stuff on a car these days with a test light is just looking for trouble. For that, there is the Fluke DMM which is indispensable! > A digital oscilloscope would be nice. Yes. An oscilloscope & microscope & telescope have always been on my Xmas wish list... > Also some logic probes. You're the second one to mention a "logic probe", which I think I used in the early 70's for Texas Instruments TTL circuits. But not for cars. I'm not sure what you mean by "logic probe" for a circa 50s, 60s, 70s car. Do you have an example on the net? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:11PM Xeno wrote: >> You'd wonder why the gap mattered in the days of yore and now it doesn't >> matter. I don't get that. > High energy ignition systems, platinum electrodes. That makes sense that the voltage zap is higher voltage nowadays, so, I guess the metal erosion was offset with the platinum cap. Since spark plugs are cheap and yet, platinum is super expensive, that platinum cap must be pretty thin, don't you think? I just opened my tuneup kit, where those gap gauges are still there! <https://i.imgur.com/15legK6.jpg> >> But that's another difference in the days of yore! > I first worked overseas when I was 26 years old. I think our kids and grandkids are more worldly at five years old than we were at 20 in the days of yore! |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:11PM Xeno wrote: > I have Toyotas precisely because they have a chain. I have to agree with you that if I knew a vehicle had a belt, and especially if it was an interference engine, for me, that car would be nearly worthless. Just like FWD cars and tricked-out cars are, to me, nearly worthless. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:17PM Xeno wrote: > aftermarket replacement for points with, say, an optical or magnetic > sensor, and the timing never varied. Except for gear wear on the > distributor but that's over a very long time span. Thanks for reminding me of the days of yore. Here's my ancient timing light to check all of that: <https://i.imgur.com/XSW3lhK.jpg> And my very first dwell checker which I don't even remember how to use: <https://i.imgur.com/qkPfJ8e.jpg> Because this dwellmeter was so much easier to read the value off of: <https://i.imgur.com/aHSy27T.jpg> > Two strokes are always harder on spark plugs. Yup. They fouled. And then they fouled again. And again. You got very good at filing them down to sharp edges. > A lot of technology in spark plug, especially in the metalurgical side. I'm not so naive to not know that there is a lot of engineering, even in the rib and resistor design, but their actual use, when we put the correct one in our vehicles, is pretty simple I think. Spark. Spark. Spark. Spark. Spark .... (rinse, repeat). |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:19PM Xeno wrote: > need to delve into the books on automotive engine design such as this > one I have in my library here; > http://www.springer.com/la/book/9783211377628 It's interesting we all universally feel engines last longer, but I wonder if it's not that the *car* lasts longer. For example, tires last longer. Ball joints and u-joints and wheel bearings last longer. The body last longer. The exhaust lasts longer. What doesn't last longer on a car nowadays? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:21PM Xeno wrote: > start and improved warmup time. > Positive crankcase ventilation removed any acidic components and > prevented carbon buildup in the oil. Those are interesting advantages of EFI which are: a. Less gasoline dilution of cylinder walls b. Less contamination of the oil So, fundamentally, people seem to be saying that carburetors contaminated everything more than does EFI, which reduced the life of the engine. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:23PM Xeno wrote: > GDI makes it almost an order of magnitude better >> again. > Bzzztt. GDI has brought the scourge of carbon buildup back. Googling for what you mean by "GDI"... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection> Pros and cons of gasoline direct injection... <https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/02/pros-and-cons-of-direct-injection-engines/index.htm> What's so great about gasoline direct injection anyway? <https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/whats-so-great-about-direct-injection-abcs-of-car-tech/> |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:25PM Xeno wrote: > The small amount of combustion detonation sufficient to trigger the > knock sensor serves to remove potentially harmful combustion chamber > deposits. Now that's an interesting concept! If my bimmer requires higher-octane fuel, and if I add lower-octane fuel instead, and if I can induce pinging, then the moment that the engine pings, it vibrates "just enough" to shake loose carbon deposits (until the engine timing is retarded to eliminate the pinging). I have never heard of that, but, it kind of sort of makes sense. Is that what you're implying can happen? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:27PM Xeno wrote: > In the emissions world, a longer zap is what you need. A short zap can > lead to a misfire so that's a no no. In order to get a longer term > spark, there arose a need to go to high energy ignition systems. Thank you for correcting my assumption. So it's a higher voltage zap for a longer period of time. What's the old voltage? Something like 10K to 15K volts, right? What is the new voltage zap? |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:29PM Xeno wrote: > improvements that led to long oil life, hence longer engine life. Add to > that better metals, better combustion processes, fuel injection, > computer control, electronic ignition systems. I see what you mean now. Keeping the gas and combustion deposits out of the oil has to work. Of course, so does changing the oil (and SB->SN oil quality). And polyetheramine detergent in the gasoline. > Getting rid of the carburetor was a big improvement. Until this thread, I had not realized that the cylinder wall was being washed with gasoline, but it must have been because that's what a choke essentially does, and certainly what the accelerator pump did. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 02:32PM rickman wrote: > I'm not so familiar with polypropylene and UV. I know most plastics are > susceptible unless additives are used. There are lots of references > available... read! Fair enough. But if someone can't just tell me the answer, then that just means one or both of two things. 1. Nobody actually knows the answer (because if they can't simplify, they don't know it). 2. The answer is known but it's so freaking complex that nobody can summarize it (see #1 above). If the answer can't be summarized *accurately*, then it's not known. So if I look it up, I'll just find out the same thing that everyone else already found out - which is that it's too complex to summarize accurately. Which was my point. |
| avagadro7@gmail.com: Nov 05 01:35AM -0700 https://www.google.com/search?tbm=shop&q=thin+grip+needle+nose+vice+grips+pliers&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj68erJgafXAhUF0GMKHUm0CFQQ1TUIZQ&biw=360&bih=560&dpr=3 Grind thick noses to fit, file teeth into nut holding area Switch unit is pigtailed, solder to harness after mounting Fix round nut as designed Snug rear Tighten rear nut holding front with vise grips. With unit 20 degrees from tight. Squeeze tight unit onto dash fixed nutshaftnut holding that fixed Having left that threading free inside round nut. |
| whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>: Nov 04 10:42PM -0700 On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:06:11 AM UTC-7, Bob F wrote: > I have an old floppy disk that I need to recover the files... Eight inch? 5.25 inch? 3.5 inch? Single or double sided? Density and format? Some formats of 3.5 inch can just pop into a USB floppy drive. Others require finding hardware of ysteryear. |
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