| Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 14 10:51AM -0600 On 1/14/18 10:37 AM, Mad Roger wrote: > I was hoping to get more insight from the scientific and > mechanical folks here. Ain't gonna happen. The people what know how this shit works aren't going to waste their time arguing with your preconceived misconceptions. -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
| Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 14 06:20PM On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 01:27:58 -0800 (PST), >> The real question who in the hell fucking cares?? > I didn't, until I found the brake pads fitted by a quick nationwide chain a year earlier were totally disintegrating. > Funny thing is you can get the same brake pads at a scrapyard for a fraction the price, but no-one wants to. It's a valid question of who cares about choosing the proper brake pads. Bear in mind that the Toyota FF pads are $157 a set at the local dealership, while at a local parts store, I can get FF pads for $20 a set. C = Up to 0.15u E = 0.15u to 0.25u E = 0.25u to 0.35u F = 0.35u to 0.45u G = 0.45u to 0.55u H = 0.55u to 0.65u Z = Unclassified That's a huge difference in price, for material that has the same friction coefficient, if not quality, don't you think? So it behooves intelligent people to figure out, scientifically, whether there is a way to tell what's *different* about those pads. Everyone understands a number line, but there are non-linear issues here which nobody here seems (so far) to understand such that they can tell us how to properly compare the two brake pads based on the information a consumer would have. In the end, I don't see any indication whatsoever that anyone here knows how to properly compare the performance of those $157 and $20 brake pads and shoes in order to make an intelligent buying decision. That's kind of a sad revelation for this newsgroup, don't you think? |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 14 10:34AM -0800 Please let this 32nd post be the last one responding to Mr. Neutron and his wildly ignorant stupidities. Pretty please! Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 14 02:46PM -0500 On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:20:33 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger >how to properly compare the performance of those $157 and $20 brake pads >and shoes in order to make an intelligent buying decision. >That's kind of a sad revelation for this newsgroup, don't you think? Not at all. Even a "brake engineer" would not be able to tell ypou how to tell the good fromthe bad (or less good - don't knowthere is any "bad"brakes on the market - even a lot of the "counterfeit" stuff will stop the car). The "brake engineer" would likely beable to tell you which of "his" product is better - but not necessarily if his was betteror worse than another brand. Back when I was a Toyota tech and service manager there were at least 2 different formulationsof brake pad that fit numerous Toyota vehicles of the time - one was used up to a particular production date, and another after. Both were available as replacement parts, and I always used the one, regardless of vehicle production date, because it stopped better and I could install the second and third set without having to replace rotors. It was a difference between the metal used in the "semi metallic" lining. One was magnetic - the other had brass in it. The brass stopped better and didn't cause pitting of the rotors. The pads didn't last as long, but virtually nobody ever actually wore out the "magnetic" ones before the rotors needed replacing, so the pad life, in and of itself, was a total non-issue. IIRC the brass was the early pad and the iron was the replacement/update. The same situation rose years back on, I believe, FORD brake shoes where the linings would deteriorate and fall apart before the half wear point. They went from rivetted to bonded, and then the glue started letting go, and the entire lining would free-wheel between the shoes and the drum. It was a real bugger if that happened only on one front wheel. It would have a MONSTEWROUS pull one time, then brake fine the next - and you NEVER knew when it was going to pull - or which way - because sometimes the loose material would grab, sometimes it would hold properly, andothertimes it would do virtually nothing - - - Brake materials are a fine line between a science and a "black art" |
| Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 14 11:11PM On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:46:53 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: > how to tell the good fromthe bad (or less good - don't knowthere is > any "bad"brakes on the market - even a lot of the "counterfeit" stuff > will stop the car). Hi Clare, You're actually the *only* one on any of these three newsgroups who knew the bottom line from the start, which is that we're fucked when we try to compare a $157 brake pad with a $20 brake pad. Everyone loves a number line, which is why people buy batteries by warranty or why they say the stupid line that "you get what you pay for" when we all know that a $300 set of speakers at Toyota gets you a crappy speaker compared to a $50 set at Crutchfields. So you can never tell by price. You can only tell by quality. And there's no way to *compare* quality, it seems. You knew that. Which is why you stick to name brands. Which is fine, as name brands is just another way of saying you buy by a number line, where the number line only has parts on the right and left of zero. Brands to the right of zero you'd buy (e.g., Napa or Wagner) and brands to the left you wouldn't buy. But that sucks too as a determinant although at least with the DOT Edge Code, we can tell, for sure, which company made the friction material (so we could tell that an Axxis pad is the same as a PBR which is the same as a Metal Masters pad, for example). > The "brake engineer" would likely beable to tell > you which of "his" product is better - but not necessarily if his was > betteror worse than another brand. Yes. That's what the AMECA engineer basically said. He even said, many times, that the brake engineer might not even know himself, unless he himself submitted the pad material for testing. So, basically EVERYONE is buying brake pads completely blind. If that's not sad to you, it is to me. > having to replace rotors. It was a difference between the metal used > in the "semi metallic" lining. One was magnetic - the other had brass > in it. If you have the DOT Edge Code, we could tell at least who made each friction material, and whether they're on other pads, and whether they truly were the same or not, and what the friction coefficients were. But that's about it for what we could tell about the two pads from just having them both in our hands. That's sad. > replacing, so the pad life, in and of itself, was a total non-issue. > IIRC the brass was the early pad and the iron was the > replacement/update. I don't even look at the marketing bullshit because one spec of dust and they can call it ceramic. There's no law or rules. They can put a spec of iron and then call it semi metallic. The only laws are they can't put asbestos in it. The rest is marketing bullshit. We've been there, so let's not go there again. :) We're essentially choosing brake pads almost completely blind. And that's sad. > wear point. They went from rivetted to bonded, and then the glue > started letting go, and the entire lining would free-wheel between the > shoes and the drum. Yes. I'm not covering defects in workmanship or design of the backing. I'm just covering the friction material here, because friction is the fundamental thing a brake pad does. I know all about the issues that we will never be able to compare pads with such as longevity of the pads and rotors, fitment, noise, dusting, etc. > Brake materials are a fine line between a science and a "black art" I agree that for the *formulator*, it's likely halfway between science and a black art, but for the poor consumer, it's complete marketing bullshit. Nobody, it appears, actually knows anything about buying brake pads when they have two pads they've never seen before in their hands. You have the EXPERIENCE to pick a pad, but even if I shoved two pads that you have never seen before (such as two I'm going to need to compare), you can't compare them either (unless you know the brand). Even then, you harp on the conterfeits, so unless you know a telltale sign, you can't tell from the brand either, especially when buying online. SO it's just sad, sad, sad, that we're all utterly blind when it comes to comparing brake pads. I think that's very depressing. We're at the mercy of marketing bullshitters and idiots who do brake pad reviews on amazon that make no sense and aren't for the same car and compare things like worn old pads against brand new pads, and the butt dyno takes over from there. All those reviews are basically worthless. All the marketing bullshit is basically worthless. The one dream I had was that this AMECA Edge Code could tell me a lot, and it does tell me three things, but that's it. Sigh. It's just sad. I do thank you for your help, as you're the only one, I think, who knew what he was talking about from the start. I had to learn it. You already knew it. |
| AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>: Jan 14 05:27PM -0600 On 1/14/2018 5:11 PM, Mad Roger wrote: > I do thank you for your help, as you're the only one, I think, who knew > what he was talking about from the start. I had to learn it. You already > knew it. And all that is different from buying a bag of white flour to make cookies in what way exactly? -- Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jan 14 05:52PM -0800 On Sunday, 14 January 2018 16:37:09 UTC, Mad Roger wrote: > benefit from the police cruiser report as is possible given Clare's astute > observations about EE and FF pads faring differently, but not because of > their coefficient of friction. There are presumably 2nd order differences in pad performance, but we've no idea what they are. EE versus FF is not it seems the relevant criterion as long as the car can apply enough force to lock wheels with the pads. Whether all modern cars can do that with EE or not I also have no idea. FWIW certainly all historic ones can't. > I was hoping to get more insight from the scientific and mechanical folks > here. you're getting a bit, but afaik none of us are brake specialists or researchers. NT |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jan 14 05:58PM -0800 On Sunday, 14 January 2018 18:20:35 UTC, Mad Roger wrote: > Z = Unclassified > That's a huge difference in price, for material that has the same friction > coefficient, if not quality, don't you think? That's retail. And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake shoes for £1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why? No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though they're the same parts you get in the shops. > In the end, I don't see any indication whatsoever that anyone here knows > how to properly compare the performance of those $157 and $20 brake pads > and shoes in order to make an intelligent buying decision. if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision. > That's kind of a sad revelation for this newsgroup, don't you think? No, it's an electronics newsgroup. Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating oak is? NT |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jan 14 06:01PM -0800 On Sunday, 14 January 2018 18:20:35 UTC, Mad Roger wrote: > Z = Unclassified > That's a huge difference in price, for material that has the same friction > coefficient, if not quality, don't you think? That's retail. And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake shoes for £1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why? No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though they're the same parts you get in the shops. > In the end, I don't see any indication whatsoever that anyone here knows > how to properly compare the performance of those $157 and $20 brake pads > and shoes in order to make an intelligent buying decision. if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision. > That's kind of a sad revelation for this newsgroup, don't you think? No, it's an electronics newsgroup. Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating oak is? NT |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jan 14 06:05PM -0800 On Sunday, 14 January 2018 23:11:20 UTC, Mad Roger wrote: > The one dream I had was that this AMECA Edge Code could tell me a lot, and > it does tell me three things, but that's it. > Sigh. It's just sad. if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue |
| stratus46@yahoo.com: Jan 14 09:41AM -0800 > USB and infared these days. > So, until I can get one from ebay, is there any temporary fix? (The > other mouse functions work fine). Are you sure it doesn't have a broken solder joint on the switch? Years of clicking could cause cracking. G² |
| Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: Jan 14 11:33AM -0800 On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 11:35:22 AM UTC-5, Allodoxaphobia wrote: > Visit your local 2nd-hands shops: GoodWill, ARC, Salvation Army, etc. > Lots of widows donate the geezer's old computer stuff and there are > often many old mice handing from peg boards in those stores. This. Every thrift store I've been to has a dozen mice at $1 each. You could probably make a deal for a bulk buy. |
| Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com>: Jan 14 01:56PM -0600 > guess that switch is going bad. There dont seem to be any place to get > some contact cleaner inside of it. > Have any of you ever found a way to repair these switches? I wear them out. Actually, I use trackballs, but the switches are the same, and seem to be interchangeable. So, I pull the right button switches out of old mice and put them in the ones I use. Digi-Key has the SW502 that seems to fit most mice. $1.61 in single quantity. Jon |
| "Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com>: Jan 14 09:49PM <oldschool@tubes.com> wrote in message news:eg2l5dh9496lm90us3vl0jqfvr55bupsb9@4ax.com... > fighting with this mouse, which works fine for awhile, then refuses to > do anything till I beat the crap out of that button a dozen times or > more..... Searching around forNOS might dig up a ball mouse from when they came with an adaptor - I had a few left over from various things and found they're not universal. if it came in the same box as the device - it should work. I'd get some cheap mice from flea markets until I found the right spare switch to salvage. Ball mice didn't work for me because i used to be a heavy smoker. the optical ones rarely work on proper mouse mats, but they work perfectly on a sheet of plain white paper. just stick a sheet on the mouse mat with carpet tape and trim round the edges. |
| "Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com>: Jan 14 09:55PM "Sjouke Burry" <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote in message news:5a5a8386$0$1703$e4fe514c@textnews.kpn.nl... > I have replaced some of those switches in a few mice. > The electronic lab had them in stock. > So somebody is selling them. Couple of years ago I looked at the several boxes of mice and decided enough is enough. most of the switches got used on E-cigarettes. |
| rickman <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>: Jan 14 05:05PM -0500 ~misfit~ wrote on 1/14/2018 6:37 AM: >> So, until I can get one from ebay, is there any temporary fix? (The >> other mouse functions work fine). > I just got a packet of 10 mouse switches from Aliexpress for $3. I don't think he'll buy from Aliexpress, too cheap and he doesn't like the free shipping you can get. All kidding aside, he doesn't like buying Chinese when he can get a part sold in the USA even though they are all the same parts. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
| Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 14 04:21PM -0600 On 1/14/18 4:05 PM, rickman wrote: > he doesn't like buying Chinese when he can get a part sold in the USA > even though they are all the same You haven't been paying attention. He buys Chinese all the time, he's too cheap to buy American. He just rags on them non-stop to show he's a real patriotic American. -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Jan 14 06:01PM -0800 >"Notwithstanding, here's the USB to PS/2 adapter you need. <https://www.ebay.com/itm/252486083292> " Those pretty much do not work. It may have the correct wiring but the USB drivers must be installed, and if they are then the problem is solved. I remember building a 98 PC for a buddy of mine. After all the ordering of components, it was off to the local PC store for a few things. They talked him into a USB keyboard. I said "Just how fast can you type ?" but he got talked into it anyway. Problem was he wanted to use a power on password which of course won't work in 98 with a USB keyboard. The same is true of USB keyboards as well as mice. The wires in the adapter plug are not the whole story. You should still be able to find an optical PS/2 mouse. I have one. Even though I run XP on that box it works just fine, lucky in light of the fact that I have boot drive select on that machine. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Jan 14 06:05PM -0800 >"Sometimes those work, sometimes not. It depends on what the mouse & PC are capable of. " The adapter is just a plug to a plug. It either needs USB drivers or some software to convert the PS/2 mouse port to a USB mouse port. Such software does exist, as does for regular serial to UBS (I beet performance sucks) and parallel to USB (common on printers of a certain vintage. |
| Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>: Jan 14 10:25AM -0700 On 1/11/18, 11:14 AM, in article p389h9$nrn$2@gioia.aioe.org, "Harry Newton" > Snit - try to add technical on-topic value for once in your life. > Let's see, from your very next post, whether you're even *capable* of > adding on-topic technical value to this thread. You pretend to not value my input but repeatedly bring my name up to try to pull me into conversations. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308> |
| Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>: Jan 14 10:25AM -0700 On 1/11/18, 11:20 AM, in article 1YGdnVtlj-twN8rHnZ2dnUU7-e-dnZ2d@giganews.com, "Fox's Mercantile" >> :) > I am not Snit you fucking moron. > Fuck you and your alleged degrees. Harry values my input. As much as he attacks me and lies about me, he learns from me. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308> |
| Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>: Jan 14 10:26AM -0700 On 1/11/18, 11:21 AM, in article 1YGdnVplj-umNsrHnZ2dnUU7-e8AAAAA@giganews.com, "Fox's Mercantile" >>> Although I'm touched that you find it necessary to attack me. >> You are Snit. > What part of "I'm not snit" do you fail to grasp? He merely wants me to post more so he can learn more. He will never directly admit it but he knows my posts teach him a lot about technology. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308> |
| Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>: Jan 14 10:26AM -0700 On 1/11/18, 12:20 PM, in article 67ef5dt698tsrum83cd2v1e2qci9vs5bo8@4ax.com, >> He is merely responding to Harry's lies, which are repeated far more than >> just three times. > I was just pulling his chain. Of course. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308> |
| Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>: Jan 14 10:28AM -0700 On 1/11/18, 11:22 AM, in article 1YGdnVVlj-vhNsrHnZ2dnUU7-e-dnZ2d@giganews.com, "Fox's Mercantile" > You haven't added any since the beginning. > And I'm NOT Snit > Get that through your thick skull. Harry claims to not lie, but he lies in his every post. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308> |
| Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 14 12:08PM -0600 On 1/14/18 11:28 AM, Snit wrote: > And I'm NOT Snit > Get that through your thick skull. > Harry claims to not lie, but he lies in his every post. Well yeah. And at least you're not claiming to be me. ;-) -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
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