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jurb6006@gmail.com: Jan 14 09:09PM -0800 Got a bunch of heat sinks. I doubt I'll ever use them. Should I just scrap them for the aluminum ? Or would they be worth more as what they are ?

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Jan 15 08:11AM -0800 > Got a bunch of heat sinks. I doubt I'll ever use them. Should I just scrap them for the aluminum ? Or would they be worth more as what they are ?   Check ebay.   -- Cheers, Bev Why is it so hot and what am I doing in this handbasket?

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 14 06:11PM -0800 There's something happening here But what it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun over there Telling me I got to beware   I think it's time we stop Children, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong Young people speaking their minds Getting so much resistance from behind   It's time we stop Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   What a field day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly saying, "hooray for our side"   It's time we stop Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid Step out of line, the men come and take you away   We better stop Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   We better stop Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   We better stop Now, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   We better stop Children, what's that sound? Everybody look - what's going down?   Stephen Stills     Guys and gals:   a) There are many thousands of mechanics out there who _REALLY DO_ have the best interests of their customers at heart. b) Many of them are perfectly willing to share their experiences with their customers. c) And, for the most part, they are willing to share sources and reasons for them. d) OEM parts, for the most part (pun intended) will do the job nicely. I just replaced the rear brakes on my 2014 Ford C-Max Energi at 67,000 miles - the front brakes are still at 70%. I used 100% OEM parts, at a material cost of $180, retail-from-Ford. NOTE: As this is a plug-in hybrid, dynamic braking, if exploited properly, does most of the actual work involved. Saving the brakes.   Deep analysis is not required. Attention to life-safety *IS* required. And that is ALL that is required.   Understanding brakes 101:   The primary job of brakes is stopping the vehicle in a controlled, safe, reliable fashion. Whatever wearing parts as are necessary to complete this task are sacrificial to the primary job. Manufacturers have absolutely no interest whatsoever in compromising this system at any level and in any way. Too many Lawyers out there for them to take such an absurd risk.     Kinda-sorta makes debates on the number of angels residing on the head of any given pin, whether dancing, or not, patently absurd. FULL STOP.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 14 11:51PM -0500 On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:11:16 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger   >Yes. I'm not covering defects in workmanship or design of the backing. >I'm just covering the friction material here, because friction is the >fundamental thing a brake pad does.   N o, the PRIMARY quality of a brake material that YOU need to worry about is "performance" That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake feel, pad life, and rotor life.   The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE . (Both are essentially an F -)   AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they will be close.   I talk to my jobber and ask what their warranty experience is with different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has problems.   Years ago I got and read the Service Station and Garage Management magazine - which had articles about different products - written by mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the Stinkers.     >> Brake materials are a fine line between a science and a "black art"   >I agree that for the *formulator*, it's likely halfway between science and >a black art, but for the poor consumer, it's complete marketing bullshit.   Look for a certified label           New vehicles must meet federal performance standards—a minimum stopping distance in a variety of situations under a specified pedal effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not necessarily the case.   In an effort to improve the customer's comfort level—and also to avoid future government regulations—brake manufacturers can test and verify their products under two voluntary certification standards. Both are designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being installed on their vehicle are certified.   The first is an independent proprietary program developed by Greening Testing Laboratories in Detroit called D3EA—which stands for Dual Dynamometer Differential Effectiveness Analysis. This procedure tests front and rear friction materials together on dual dynamometers, then simulates vehicle weight and speed through a computer program to measure braking effectiveness and balance for different applications. D3EA was introduced in 1996, and among the first aftermarket companies to achieve D3EA certification were ACDelco, NAPA, Raybestos, and Satisfied.   The Brake Manufacturers Council (BMC) has a second certification standard called BEEP, or Brake Effectiveness Evaluation Procedure. BEEP testing is conducted on a single dynamometer, and the numbers are washed through a computer program to compare brake performance with federal standards for new vehicles. The BEEP approval seals appear on packaging as manufacturers submit products for certification.   The D3EA tests are proprietary and more expensive, but they're also completely independent and tougher to pass. Brake manufacturers have contended that most consumers change only the front or rear brakes at one time, so a concurrent dual test is unnecessary. But, according to officials from Greening, NHTSA tests in the 1980s concluded there was a significant reduction in braking performance when there was a differential between front and rear replacement pads as compared with original factory parts. That report provided some of the motivation for the brake industry to begin seeking a certification standard before the federal government issued regulations for replacement pads. The obvious concern over BEEP testing is that the manufacturers themselves oversaw the development of the certification standards. While the program received input from the Society of Automotive Engineers and actual certification is currently conducted at an independent laboratory, BMC members can conduct similar tests on their own single dynamometers and compute the numbers.   Consumers must remember that not all of an aftermarket manufacturer's lineup gets certified, only pads designed for a specific vehicle that passed the designated test. Also, since the D3EA tests are expensive, manufacturers may test just the standard line for a particular vehicle. One can assume then that any upgraded line from that same manufacturer will meet the test standards. That's why heavy duty or the new ceramic pads may not carry the seal. The best advice is to look for manufacturers that aggressively test their standard line, then move up in grade if you need more performance or seek other advantages such as minimal wheel dust.     >can't compare them either (unless you know the brand).   >Even then, you harp on the conterfeits, so unless you know a telltale sign, >you can't tell from the brand either, especially when buying online.   Which is why I seldom buy stuff like that online - and if I do, I buy from a vendor I KNOW is honest and reliable. (I'll sometimes order parts from Napa Onlineand pick them ujp at my local napa store - particularly if I find I need something on the weekend when the store is not open and I want it for Monday) >marketing bullshitters and idiots who do brake pad reviews on amazon that >make no sense and aren't for the same car and compare things like worn old >pads against brand new pads, and the butt dyno takes over from there.   Then pay the extra and buy the Toyota parts - that way YOU KNOW what you are buying. Sometimes peace of mind costs a few bucks.   >All those reviews are basically worthless. >All the marketing bullshit is basically worthless.   Any review by DIY guys on places liike Amazon are generally worse than useless.   >The one dream I had was that this AMECA Edge Code could tell me a lot, and >it does tell me three things, but that's it.   >Sigh. It's just sad.   Buy D3EA certified parts and you stand a much higher than normal chance of getting what you need.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 15 02:19PM On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),   > That's retail.   That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.   Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50 speaker, and the price is exactly the same.   So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.   That's retail for you! :)   > And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake > shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?   I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality. > No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though > they're the same parts you get in the shops.   I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard, which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.   What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?   Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?   > if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.   There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.   The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything about.   I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.   > Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating > of oak is?   Or rubber in bicycle brakes.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 15 02:19PM On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:   > about is "performance" > That "performance" includes how well it stops hot and cold, brake > feel, pad life, and rotor life.   Yes. But. There's no way to tell that if you have two pads in your hands, and even less of a way to tell if you're buying two pads online.   Remember, *all* the marketing is complete bullshit (refer back to Axxis, PBR, and Metal Masters - three differently marketed and priced pads, all exactly the same - and refer to the fact that there are no laws telling them that a spec of dust isn't ceramic and that a spec of iron isn't semimetallic.   The only law that I know of is that they can't call a non-asbestos pad that if it contains asbestos.   Maybe someone here knows the laws, but that's my sad conclusion so far.   > The coefficient of friction only affects ONE of those qualities - and > the gross difference between a good e and a poor g is NEGLIGIBLE . > (Both are essentially an F -)   Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B when they are in the consumer's hands.   But it's not possible. Anyone who *thinks* he can tell, is fooling himself. So every butt-dyno inspired "review" out there is complete bullshit (and always was for a huge number of reasons).   Everything is bullshit. That's what's so sad.   The only thing we know, by looking at a pad, is who made it, what its friction coefficient is, and whether or not some other pad is made by that company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material.   That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing bullshit.   > AN OEM GUALITY brake part will be CLOSE to what was specified by the > manufacturer - may be marginally better or marginally worse - but they > will be close.   Yes. You have always been right, but ... and this is a big butt! :)   1) If you get OE pads (from the dealer or pads with the exact same DOT Edge Code), then you get the handling specified by the manufacturer (assuming your vehicle is essentially the same, e.g., same size tires, same suspension setup, etc.)   2) Otherwise, if you get somethign that some marketing guy "says" is "OEM Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the fuck "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bullshitter who is telling you that.   So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality.   But what the fuck does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here.   Does OEM Quality mean that the shoe has the same friction coefficient? (Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more, right?)   Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long? Is as dustless? Makes as much noise? Has the same pedal force per deceleration value? Outgasses the same? Fades the same?   Who the fuck knows the answer to that question?   The only Occam's Razor logical answer to that question is that OEM Quality is bullshit unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him to say that.   > different products. If they have noise complaints, or poor wear, on > one brand/model but not on another, I stay away from the one that has > problems.   Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect. :)   So I understand that if I ask someone who has tons of experience, like you do, then I can get closer, but even you can't tell me what the difference is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced with them, then I'm back at starting point zero.   So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access.   > magazine - which had articles about different products - written by > mechanics, not engineers and salemen, reporting both the Gems and the > Stinkers.   Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more than they trust measurements.   That's why I don't trust butt dyno reports.   People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always written to placate their own preconceived notions.   The *only* review I will trust is a blind review, where the driver doesn't know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get advertisement money either.   And that's almost zero reviews. All those reviews in Car & Driver and Motortrend are bullshit, IMHO.   I realize you're talking a *different* kind of mag, so maybe it's not a rag like those are, but it's not something I'm going to read unless you know of a brake comparison that is meaningful.   For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by.   Same here. Just having one test is useless. The test has to cover all brake pads we have available to us.   And they just don't.   > Look for a certified label   As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA.   The only reliable conclusion we can make is that any pad legally sold in the USA is about the same in performance as far as anyone can tell just by looking at the pad.   Unless a scientific test has been run, they're all the same is the only conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're different) has to be based on bullshit.   That's just sad.   > effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will > perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not > necessarily the case.   I don't know that new vehicles must meet stopping distance standards but I don't doubt you as you've been right all along.   However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems that any pad works, based on those standards.   I'm not saying that all pads are exactly alike. I definitely think they're not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they are not alike, is based on bullshit that isn't backed up by any science that is available to us.   As the Ameca engineer told me, the guy submitting the material is the only guy who knows anything about them.   Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me, doesn't know anything about any other material.   > designed to ensure that replacement brakes are as effective as > original equipment, and consumers should make sure that any pads being > installed on their vehicle are certified.   Exactly. I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life, so I don't really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they expect to get brake pads and shoes.   I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen different brands on the vehicle.   Only at the dealer would I expect a specific brand.   Is that a correct assumption? (I have zero experience with mechanics.)   I'll cover the rest separately. I do appreciate your advice as you have been right all along. You just happen to have more resources available to you than I have to me.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 15 02:19PM On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:05:29 -0800 (PST),   >> Sigh. It's just sad.   > if they all work ok it's not sad, it's a nonissue   I think you hit the reluctant nail on the head!   The only way this can make sense is if all brake pads work. Period.   Because if people were getting into accidents due to bad brake pads, someone would step in and stop that (we hope).   Notice even the police report, which is the only scientific study we have, never said any pad was better or worse - they just required more foot pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.   They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired deceleration value.   So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms of performance.   Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.   All this assumes that you can't afford to run your own scientific tests, because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you can't do.   For actual racing, those guys can spend the actual immense time comparing two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.   Sigh. It's sad. I didn't want to conclude that. I really didn't. But it is what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bullshit and fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad, then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 15 02:19PM On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:52:27 -0800 (PST), > to lock wheels with the pads. > Whether all modern cars can do that with EE or not I also have > no idea. FWIW certainly all historic ones can't.   I agree with you that the primary role of friction material is their friction, but as the AMECA engineer told me, the way they outgas alone can have an effect that is huge, as you are also noting.   It would be nice to figure out what these second-order effects are, such as outgassing as mentioned by the AMECA engineer, as the police cruiser test already eliminated any second-order effects from a difference in vehicles since they tested the different pads on the exact same vehicle.   So we can tentatively state that you are 100% correct that second-order effects (outgassing) apparently are as big as first-order effects (friction).   The AMECA engineer said that all materials heat up differently, which, he said, also effects the performance of the pads.   So I think we have two potentially high second-order effects which are (shockingly) almost as important as the first-order effect of friction coefficient: 1) outgassing (outgasing sp?) 2) heating 3) ?   What other potentially very high (as high as friction) second-order effects could we have, when we've eliminated the difference in vehicles and driver?

Terry Schwartz <tschw10117@aol.com>: Jan 15 07:54AM -0800 Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: Jan 15 07:22AM -0800 Not sure what this is doing in electronic repair.   It is true that a much larger percent of the population now wears glasses than 50 years ago.   There was an article I think in Scientific American that talked about the influence of sunlight. The conclusion was that kids spending time indoors doing video games contributed to near sightedness, but not in the obvious way. What they thought is that sunlight in the early years serves to prevent some near sightedness, and staying indoors reading or playing computer games instead of being outside for recess etc made the difference.

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 15 09:37AM -0600 On 1/15/18 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote: > prevent some near sightedness, and staying indoors reading or > playing computer games instead of being outside for recess etc > made the difference.   It's not the sunlight. "Outside" almost everything is more that 24" from your face. It's that simple.   -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jan 14 07:28PM -0800 On Monday, 15 January 2018 02:05:09 UTC, jurb...@gmail.com wrote: NT:   > >"Sometimes those work, sometimes not. It depends on what the mouse & PC are capable of. "   > The adapter is just a plug to a plug. It either needs USB drivers or some software to convert the PS/2 mouse port to a USB mouse port. Such software does exist, as does for regular serial to UBS (I beet performance sucks) and parallel to USB (common on printers of a certain vintage.   I've used such adaptors with many mice. Some work off the bat, some won't. Why? Because mice generally have the ability to work with either of 2 port types, though which 2 varies. (That means if you cut off a mouse's plug and wire on a different type, sometimes it will work.)   Early Win3.1 era mice were DB9 only. For years most mice did PS/2 or USB.     NT

"~misfit~" <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com>: Jan 15 04:47PM +1300 Once upon a time on usenet Fox's Mercantile wrote:   > You haven't been paying attention. > He buys Chinese all the time, he's too cheap to buy American. > He just rags on them non-stop to show he's a real patriotic American.   So a Trump voter then? -- Shaun.   "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM*." David Melville (in r.a.s.f1) (*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 15 12:46AM -0600 On 1/14/18 9:47 PM, ~misfit~ wrote: >> He buys Chinese all the time, he's too cheap to buy American. >> He just rags on them non-stop to show he's a real patriotic American.   > So a Trump voter then?   Probably not, but he certainly appears ignorant enough   -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

Archer <iam@here.com.invalid>: Jan 15 08:27PM +0530 > ISAID: I need a PS/2 mouse.     There are USB 2 PS/2 adaptors so you can easily go with a USB mouse once you have the adaptor. And PS/2 mice are really getting scarce.   -- HTH Archer

Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>: Jan 14 11:13AM -0700 On 1/14/18, 11:08 AM, in article lfednXuz0IYTAcbHnZ2dnUU7-KednZ2d@giganews.com, "Fox's Mercantile" >> Get that through your thick skull.   >> Harry claims to not lie, but he lies in his every post.   > Well yeah. And at least you're not claiming to be me. ;-)   Not yet. :)       -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.   They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.   <https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 14 10:32AM -0800 What is clear is that Jimmy Neutron, Alias Mr. Rogers, alias... and so on, has managed to generate 283 posts, including this one, to his bubbling slime. Including repeat business.   The horse is dead, thoroughly picked over, and should be allowed to dissipate into nothingness. Please do not be just another maggot and continue to feed on the rotting remains.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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