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Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 12:23PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:45 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger >3) ?   >What other potentially very high (as high as friction) second-order effects >could we have, when we've eliminated the difference in vehicles and driver?       Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the effect of reduced pad contact   May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - - )

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 02:27PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:42 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger   >Yes. You have always been right on that. I don't disagree. I was hoping >beyond hope that there was a way for the consumer to tell pad A from pad B >when they are in the consumer's hands.     OK - we've gotten off the subject of brake SHOES - wherer there is a lot less difference in materials and construction - but with PADS there are several things you can consider that are NOT "marketing bullshit"   Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they are harsher on rotors and noisier) Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics, but are not as effective when cold as metallics. Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads - leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.   You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous materials with a magnet.   For rear brake SHOES a good organic material is usually your best bet - they do not do a lot of the stopping, so generally outlast front pads by a LARGE margine and unless towing, heavy loads, or extreme duty they seldom get hot enough to fade much (compared to front brakes - where droms significantly outperform discs in initial stopping power, but quickly loose efficiency due to heat.   The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier "boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.   You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever technology meets your desires.   I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.   >bullshit (and always was for a huge number of reasons).   >Everything is bullshit. >That's what's so sad.   Engineering isn't bullshit. As an "engineer" you should appreciate that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.   The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all "science" is)   When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.   That's why their prices are generally so good (if, unlike here in Canada, the shipping costs don't totally wipe out the savings in so many cases)   Taking into account the exchange rate and shipping, I can GENERALLY buy , say, Wagner, from Napa or Parts Source for VERY close to the same price as I can buy from Rock. >company and whether or not it's exactly the same friction material.   >That's it. Everything else we "think" we know, is complete marketing >bullshit.   No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of ignorance. >Quality", then you know almost nothing since you have to "ask" what the >fuck "OEM Quality" means to the marketing bullshitter who is telling you >that.   Fiorget your paranoia about "marketting bullshit" It is BULLSHIT. Don't get your technical information from know-nothing boy-racers blogging on the internet, or reviews opn Amazon,or advertizing in enthusiast magazines. Get your info from "trade magazines" and major suppliers to the automotive TRADE.   Buy STEAK, not Sizzle. Forget your boutique brand crap. If your favourite brands were as good as you seem to think they are, they would have displaced TRW, WAGNER, Akebono, and the other major OEM SUPPLIERS as the major aftermarket suppliers.   WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?   They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond, etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket and OEM REplacement .   For good reason. They have the engineering, and they have the "critical mass" to be able to produce quality at a reasonable price.   Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a field totally outside your reralm.   Concentrate on becoming the BEST ELECTRICAL ENGINEER you can be and let the automotive engineers do their job., Along with the materials engineers, physicists, chemists, and wizards their potions and perscriptions are working pretty good.   When you start to build specialized race vehicles or highly modified special purpose vehicles, you go to the engineers with a blank checquebook and have them come up with the specialized solution you require - or you go to an "application engineer" and have him pick the best off-the-shelf solution for your application - at a significantly lower price point and a much better chance of initial success. >So, if it's actually true that it's OEM Quality, then it's OEM Quality.   >But what the fuck does OEM Quality mean when we already know that the >second-order effects are almost as great as the first order effects here.   OEM means BASICALLY THE SAME DESIGN as OEM - so the second and third order effects are taken intoaccount the same asthe OEM. This can NOT be done by a "boutique" marketing company that buys their product out of the discard bucket of some chinese sweatshop, or off the back loading dock.   ONE of your "favorite brands" - pehaps MetalMaster -whichever one is charging the highest price, most likely paid some shop in China to produce their product afterr having paid some qualified enginners to come up with the specs and formulation - then the unscrupulous "bastards" in China unloaded a few containerloads out the back door to some chinese marketing company who sold them to the other 2 manufacturers. - and quite possibly cheapened the product - possibly even to the initial purchacer - by substituting inferior raw materials, or cuttin corners on production - to sell it at a better price to the other companies - without ever changing the stamp on the material.   I've had dealings with the scoundrels, where my company paid for the design and tooling for a product, only to have it on the cover of "asian sources Computer" magazine for half what we were paying for it before we even got our first containerload.   You deal with Chinese Industry at your peril. If you have FULL CONTROL you MAY come out unscathed (Full control is a mirage)   Your 3 products MAY be the same. They MAY all be legitimate. They MAY actually meet the specs stamped on them - but certainly do NOT bet your life on it.   When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting. >(Let's hope so - but it's *easy* to find an FF pad, so, it has to be more, >right?)   >Does OEM Quality mean the shoe lasts as long?   OEM Quality means it meets the specifications of the OEM product - in all the major areas including stopping power/performance, feel, and life. >Outgasses the same? >Fades the same?   >Who the fuck knows the answer to that question?   Certainly you don't, and never will if you don't listen and get treetment for your paranoia. >is bullshit unless you *trust* the guy who says it - and even then - he >doesn't know himself - so you'd have to trust the "scientist" who told him >to say that.   Get back on your medications - and if you have never been medicated, see a professional for dianosis and a perscription as soon as possible >> problems.   >Yes. I always defer to your greater experience. But I don't have "my >jobber". Heck, you are "my jobber", in effect. :)   I have the advantage of being a legitimate tradesman with links to the automotive oem replacement and afterrmarket locally, and am known (and respected) by many of them even though I have been actively out of the trade for over 2 decades - they don't "bullshit" me. If they try, they find out pretty quickly that it doesn't work.   They can usuallyspot a "poser" pretty quickly. >is between the $20 pads and the $157 pads unless I dig up all the relevant >information about them, and even then, if your jobber isn't experienced >with them, then I'm back at starting point zero.   I can tell you your $20 pads are NOT ceramic - almost 100% guaranteed - and I can tell you the $157 pads arer NOT simple organics - almost 100% guarantee. I can also tell you if you are buying "boutique" brands you are likely overpaying for whatever it is you are buying.   If I have them in my hand I can give you a pretty good guess as to how they will stand up, and what affect they will have on your rotors.   You do not have this knowlege, and are very unlikely to ever gain that knowlege because it comes with experience, along with training and research in a field in which you have not got the training, and your level of paranoia precludes you EVER absorbing the knowlege offered to you.   >So your access to a jobber is great - but I don't have that access. You have access to trade supplies like NAPA. Sadly they will sell to anyone who darkens their door.   >Most people think that if you drop a big ball and a small ball, they'll >land at different times. Most people, I think, trust their feelings more >than they trust measurements.   And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have oversimplified that last statement A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind resistance due to size.   Not only that, a pingpong ball and a baloon will also fall at different speeds. - and if the balloon is full of hot air or helium it won't fall at all.   You simplify things way too much on one hand, and complicate them way to much onthe other.   I'd hate to have you design an electrical control system for me if your grasp of electrical engineering is as poor as your grasp of physice and aerodynamics - - -     "There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary logic and those who don't"   >People feel their car goes faster if they put in $5/gallon fuel than if >they put in $2/gallon fuel, even if it doesn't. Their reviews are always >written to placate their own preconceived notions.   If you spend megabucks on something, and stake your reputation on being right, then of course everthing you buy MUST work.   I had a brother inlaw who died of cancer because he KNEW the product he had been selling and using cured cancer - so there was NO WAY his cancer had come back If he admitted he had cancer again, he had lied to everyone he peddled the stuff to and his life had been a lie - so he didn't have cancer - untill it killed him. >know anything about the pads, and where that driver didn't write the review >and didn't get paid for writing the review and who doesn't get >advertisement money either.   Like the double blind study done by Nokian with the automotive press on their Hakkapelitta snow tires. Nobody knew which cars had what tires on them during the tests - but the experienced drivers could tell.   >For example, I hear all the time someone claiming their Cooper tire is >better than my Dunlops or Hancook's, but without the manufacturer's >comprehensive tire test for *all* the tires, we have nothing to go by.   Well, I KNOW that some coopers are better than some Duinlops - and also that some dunlops are better than some Coopers, and a few years back just about ANYTHING was better than a Hankook. I also know that Hankook builds and sells some pretty decent tires today. (and like most manufacturers - some total CRAP.   I also know that many "northamerican brand" tires are now made in China or Korea, or Thailand or VietNam.   >> Look for a certified label   >As someone else said, the certified label is the receipt which has a zip >code, which proves that you bought the pads in the USA.   BUllshit. Read the article I posted for you. It is an international certification program - independent of the manufacturer >conclusion anyone can make, since any other conclusion (that they're >different) has to be based on bullshit.   >That's just sad.   What is REALLY sad is you are so mired in Bovine Excement and paranoia that you can't see the forest for the trees. >> effort. Many consumers assume all aftermarket replacement pads will >> perform just as well or better than factory parts, but that's not >> necessarily the case.   If you buy QUALITY replacement parts, they will meet or excede those specs. If you buy boutique crap online you have no assurances at all. >don't doubt you as you've been right all along.   >However, any pad sold in the US has to also meet standards, and it seems >that any pad works, based on those standards.   There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal speeds under normal conditions. - For a while. >not. I'm just saying that all the information available to us saying they >are not alike, is based on bullshit that isn't backed up by any science >that is available to us.   Your paranoia and ignorance is showing - BIG TIME.   If I put Wagner Thermoquiet ceramic pads on the front of my vehicle, and wagner or monroe premium shoes on the rear, with good rotors and pads (no grooves or glazing) and I properly break them in, I KNOW I will be stopping well for the next couple of years or 10-20000km with no issues IF I service the front calipers regularly to be sure the sliders don't stick - and that's here in the "rust belt" of Central Ontario.   I also know, from experience, that if I pay 3 times as much for EBC greenstuff pads from some performace shop for my "Mondeo" as what I pay for OEM wagners, they don't last any longer or stop any better than if I put on Wagner Semi Metallics. Been there - done that - threw away the awful "t" shirt --- >guy who knows anything about them.   >Nobody else does. And even that guy, the Ameca engineer kept telling me, >doesn't know anything about any other material.   ANd the guy who submits it may not know squat about it either other than where he had it made and by who. >really know what *other* people do, but I would *guess* that most people go >to a brake shop like Midas or America's Tire, or the local indy, and they >expect to get brake pads and shoes.   Perhaps three of the WORST places to go - and your " I have never been to a mechanic in my entire life," speeks volumes - if nothing else - about your combination of paranoia and ignorance.   >I doubt they ask much about what they got, but if I took a score of cars to >a score of brake shops, I wouldn't be surprised to get more than a dozen >different brands on the vehicle.   ANd if you took them to those brake shops,

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 03:02PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:44 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger >pounds or fewer foot pounds of pedal force for the same deceleration value.   >They never said anything about not being able to decelerate at the desired >deceleration value.   The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material - it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.   If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third application - they are pretty crappy brakes.   If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -   >So, I very belatedly am getting the lesson that, in terms of stopping a >typical passenger vehicle, all pads sold are just about the same in terms >of performance.   No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point. The different brake PAD materials are mission specific. A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands down. Every time. A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop better on a cold stop than a ceramic.   >Another way of saying that is that no matter what the price is, you can't >get a bad pad (nor a good pad). All you get is a pad.   No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.   Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn good indicator.   Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.   What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular, work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.   When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad material into the finish of the rotor.. The stopping power of the brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal. How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything. If you stop hard and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point - UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.   A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but sometimes "real" "warped rotor".   Inferior brake friction material performs more poorly in these ways than premium materials.   A worn, glazed, or grooved rotor will not "bed in" reliably because the surface will heat and cool unevenly - with uneven pressure across the brake surface -   So brake friction material quality AND the installation affect brake performance.   Also, the brake mounting hardware - the shims and springs either provided with the new pads, purchased separately, or salvaged from the prior installation (whether OEM or aftermarket or totally missing) alsohave effects on the performance (and life) of the brakes. Heat transfer, Vibration, and freedon to move in the caliper, are all effected by the quality and presence of the proper mounting hardware - which is designed/modified by the pad manufacturer to matvch the characteristics and requirements of their particular pad and friction material - which is why "premium"brake kits are supplied with the proper hardware to install the brakes for their best performance. >because the one scientific test we do have, concludes as much anyway in >that there's no way to tell unless you run the test yourself, which you >can't do.   More paranoid bullshit.     >two different pads, but the consumer is left to realize, as sad as this >conclusion is for me to state, that all consumer-available brake pads are >pretty much exactly the same in terms of stopping ability.   Total bullshit. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the best and worst in the test is VERY significant. What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)   >what the science tells us it is. The rest is just marketing bullshit and >fear mongering from the butt-dynos that think if they paid $157 for a pad, >then it must be better than if they paid $20 for the same pad.     WRONG. And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 03:34PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger >because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can >prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since >I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.   You still have not learned ANYTHING?????   The specs on speakers are known to be some of the best fiction ever written, followed only by the specs on consumer stereo equipment.   >So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same >rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but >the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.   You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for   You can take THAT to the bank.   >That's retail for you! :)   >> And really the difference is greater, I once bought a set of 4 brake >> shoes for +AKM-1, that's under $2. They performed without any issue. Why?   Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe enough to require anything better.   I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in 1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost .   I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for".   The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years - I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than my money's worth.   In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying better than both the seller and other potential buyers.   You are FAR more likely to get less than you paid for - particularly when buying any commodity new at retail - where you are SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to get more than you pay for.   Price is not an accurate predictor of quality, but with a few other often obvious clues, it is a pretty reliable indicator.   >I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the >marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.   It is, as I have stated, an indicator, but not a predictor or guarantee of quality.   >> No-one here wants to buy brake parts from scrapyards, even though >> they're the same parts you get in the shops.   No they are not - and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake parts and used exhaust/emission parts.   >I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard, >which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a >billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.   Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes, suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it.   That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first. Have I used "used" brake parts in the past?? Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53 Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less than optimal. ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind this was 44 years ago - - - - . >entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?   >Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?   >> if both do the job ok, $20 is the intelligent buying decision.   Not necessarilly.   >There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we >have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.   Perhaps not of a good one, but quite often of an inferior one   >The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold >true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything >about.   again, bushels of bovine excrement.   >I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by >having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.   And why do you, like so many "millenials" (I'm aking an assumption here from significant evidence) INSIST on buying everything on-line????   >> Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating >> of oak is?   Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!!   >Or rubber in bicycle brakes.   There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of "rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others for center pull (different amounts of pressure available)

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 04:09PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 04:31PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:   More of "all you ever wanted to know about friction materials" but were afraid to ask - - -   http://www.sae.org/events/bce/tutorial-bahadur.pdf   and   http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/understanding-friction-and-formulations/   and   http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4442/4/1/5/htm   and   http://www.marathonbrake.com/products/varied-application/ub/   and   https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/Files/Pub57043.pdf   and   a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!!

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 04:39PM -0500 On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:09:47 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:   >On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:34:13 -0500, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >wrote:   >>see http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1687814016647300 for an extensive explanation of friction materials from an engineering pwerspective - the english isn't particularly good but LOTS of information     And here is some more real good information on brake pad materials - on a lower level - for the non-engineers out there.

Tekkie® <Tekkie@comcast.net>: Jan 15 05:01PM -0500 Clare Snyder posted for all of us...       > Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early > no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - - > ) They used to be a bitch to get out.   To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were NO brakes. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What a difference! When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. They are designed and built to endure punishment. Try and go to the dealer and get the model, good luck with that. Watch what happens on one of the police shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. The actors can't make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*     -- Tekkie

etpm@whidbey.com: Jan 15 03:05PM -0800 >No, it's an electronics newsgroup.   >Moving to historic vehicles, how would I find out which friction rating oak is?   >NT I dunno about oak but I do know that pine doesn't last long. The cable cars in San Fransisco use long pieces of pine under the cars as brakes. These are pressed onto the rack and are replaced every two to three days. The cars have two other braking systems as well. Good planning for a hilly city. Years ago I made some oak wear blocks for passenger jets. I think they were for the Boeing 737. These large blocks took two guys to place onto the mill table for machining. They were attached to the underside of the tail end of the aircraft. During testing the pilot made the tail strike the tarmac during take-off. I guess it's better to scrape off some oak than it is to scrape off the airplane skin. Eric

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 16 02:09AM On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:   > the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material - > it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from > them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.   Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad.   You were right. I was wrong.   If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot friction coefficients are.   That's it.   Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the pad itself.   > (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal > temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third > application - they are pretty crappy brakes.   Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they? I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested).   So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way of knowing the fade.   It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands.   I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material.   That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic marketing is even more meaningless.   > pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only > last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat > the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -   All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the president of the United States.   > The different brake PAD materials are mission specific. > A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands > down. Every time.   Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a bullshit marketing term.   Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up? Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions?   Ceramic is complete and total marketing bullshit. The marketing guy told me himself.   (Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.)   > when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic > or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop > better on a cold stop than a ceramic.   Let's agree to disagree. You believe in marketing. I don't.   I believe in specifications. > No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name > organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a > $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.   Let's agree to disagree.   You think price has some impact on performance. I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different branding but the exact same price.   Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object.   Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the friction.   Everything else is bullshit.   > Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn > good indicator.   Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a shitload of factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it.   > Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than > either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor > to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.   If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters. But you have no way of knowing the hardness. Do you?   > What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular, > work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.   I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you think I don't understand.   What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat.   > When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad > material into the finish of the rotor..   Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat.   It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat.   > The stopping power of the > brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished > in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.   The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come out of the first few heat cycles.   > How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking > charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything.   Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes. I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do.   I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads. But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic.   > UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly > and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven > braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.   NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop! Everyone knows this, so I know you know this. It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time.   I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print. And it only gets worse.   Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques.   > corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes > "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but > sometimes "real" "warped rotor".   Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality pad. So it's moot.   It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they wear glasses or not.   > difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping > distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the > best and worst in the test is VERY significant.   It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure. If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant. If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant.   The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for example.   What's 10 foot pounds? Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser.   > What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based > on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)   Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even that isn't meant for the consumer.   > And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have > their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.   Knowledge is dangerous. Logic is dangerous. Thinking is dangerous.   Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous. The mechanic doesn't give a shit about you or your brake pads.   All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't believe.   I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a shit about anything but money.   The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto.   You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't.   Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 16 02:10AM On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500, Tekkie+AK4- wrote:   > To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private > vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were > NO brakes.   I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car, where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it.   But I've never put in less than FF pads either.   That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum.   > I got the police shoes because I was all into it.   What's a "police shoe"?   The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only.   > What a difference!   If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after burnishing).   You probably didn't as nobody does.   You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.   That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint.   > When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful.   What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"? I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck.   > They are designed and built to endure punishment.   Like any performance vehicle on the road today?   > Try and go to the dealer and > get the model, good luck with that.   Don't even know what it is. Is it a souped up police cruiser?   > Watch what happens on one of the police > shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end.   That's not a good scientific test.   > is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit > there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there > were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*   I have been trained to drive an ambulance. Know what they taught me?   a. Defensive driving b. Noise pollution is bad c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even ambulances)   I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law, but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking the law, the onus is on you.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 16 02:10AM On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:   > Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the > effect of reduced pad contact   That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases.   > May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor.   Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening: a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or, b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect.   That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no logical doubt.   But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it?   > ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if > running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be > running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry).   Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.   1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead. 2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bullshit   I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bullshit only they said it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.   Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec of iron makes it semi-metallic.   I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality specifications.   Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 16 02:10AM On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST), Terry Schwartz wrote:   > Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......   I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum of logic.   These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and "semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).   You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction), and that's fine.   You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.   You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria: a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits. b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump) c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)   I'm not like you. I like to *understand* that which I buy.   That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one line you wrote.   I like to make intelligent buying decisions. You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.

Mad Roger <rogermadd@yahoo.com>: Jan 16 02:28AM On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:   > them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw > copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads - > leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.   Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are marketing bullshit (he used nicer terms than that).   Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?   > You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous > materials with a magnet.   Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I look them up online! :)   Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test the old shoes and pads when I take them off.   Good idea if it works. Can others concur it works?   > friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The > Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly > different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.   The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which companies that is, so I don't know what you know.   He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they fit to all cars.   > reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex > rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever > technology meets your desires.   That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.   It's just not.   And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine, for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.   SO I'm fucked.   > I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the > required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having > to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.   Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular retainers.   > Engineering isn't bullshit. As an "engineer" you should appreciate > that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.   You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right. Specifications are not bullshit. Marketing spin is bullshit.   > The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all > "science" is).   The science is only in the hands of the formulators. Nobody else has access to that science.   > due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke > damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally > getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.   This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices! They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.   > No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of > ignorance.   I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine. But I don't. I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.   > WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for > Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?   That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes. > that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond, > etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket > and OEM REplacement .   In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.   But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.   His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.   He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours, which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every* brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.   > Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER > understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a > field totally outside your reralm.   I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on specifications. I just hate it.   And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.   That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison. And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.   So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're blind.   > When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc > from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.   I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car. They're all the same to me. The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.   The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.   > A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different > speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind > resistance due to size.   Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers. But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it. So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that it woudl be the case.   You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air, but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.   My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong. Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.   Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......   > There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately > sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal > speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.   Yup. That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 09:46PM -0500 On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger   >> I got the police shoes because I was all into it.   >What's a "police shoe"?   >The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only. The shoes they tested were premium and heavy duty (all of the FF and FG were "heavy duty" pads.   On Persuit rated vehicles they oftern also have larger rotors and drums - as well as different tires, and even different RIMS to allow bwtter brake cooling. Never wondered why cruisers have "dog dish" hub caps instead of full wheel covers??? To allow the brakes to "breath" better.   >You probably didn't as nobody does.   >You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test >apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.   I can say without reservation that the "police duty" and severe duty brakes were MUCH better at high speeds than standard brakes (and sometimes not nearly as good when cold/low speed) 1 1966 Dodge Polara Pursuit Special I drove for a short time went like a scalded cat, and stopped like you had jammed a stick into a hole in the pavement.     >> get the model, good luck with that.   >Don't even know what it is. >Is it a souped up police cruiser?   Yes. >but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is >going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking >the law, the onus is on you.     Todays persuit special vehicles are often the big ecoboost engine on fords, and Hemis on Chargers. Often with a "special tune" that raises the rev limiter setting and reprograms the tranny shift points - as well as having bigger rads, bigger alternators, honking big sway bars and super-duty shocks and springs.

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 15 08:48PM -0600 On 1/15/18 8:28 PM, Mad Roger wrote: > [ Lot's of stupid repetitive shit deleted ]   On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA, Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone, JC Whitney or Pep Boys.   The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right.   All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I read on Facebook (or WebMD)."     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>: Jan 15 09:53PM -0500 On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger   >Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.   >1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead. >2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bullshit   Most definitely is NOT marketing Bullshit. It is solid engineering >semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the >Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bullshit only they said >it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.   You speak mandarin, do you? There may not be "legal" definitions, but there are industry accepted definitions - and I've sent you numerous referencesthat spell them out pretty clearly. Yes, there are "hybrids" that sort of bridge the gap - but MOST of them are identified as such.   >Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec >of iron makes it semi-metallic.   Most definirely not. There is a small percentage of metal even in organic pads, and the metal does not need to be iron. And "ceramic" has nothing to do with "dust".   A ceramic is a vitified clay base which may or may not have metals also included. A ceramic does not use phenol;ic binders.   Again - READ the stuff I posted for you. >decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a >simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality >specifications.   You are being a paranoid simleton.

oldschool@tubes.com: Jan 15 01:08PM -0600 >> ISAID: I need a PS/2 mouse.   >There are USB 2 PS/2 adaptors so you can easily go with a USB mouse >once you have the adaptor. And PS/2 mice are really getting scarce.   Saturday I ordered one of the adaptors on ebay. It's just a matter of waiting till it arrives. It was like $3.50.   Funny thing, yesterday this mouse was getting on my nerves with that failing switch. I took the insulated handle of a plyers and smacked that button really hard. Its been working flawlessly ever since.....   But I still plan to get another one or more.... I'm sure this one will eventually fail. But at least it will hopefully work till I get my adaptor or another PS/2 mouse.

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 15 02:40PM -0600 > I took the insulated handle of a plyers and smacked that > button really hard.   Remind me to NOT let you work on any of my things.     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Jan 15 06:42PM -0500 In article <IsWdnb7Rn-wojMDHnZ2dnUU7-K-dnZ2d@giganews.com>, jdangus@att.net says... > > I took the insulated handle of a plyers and smacked that > > button really hard.   > Remind me to NOT let you work on any of my things.   For us older people, we know the first thing one does is to hit the device that is causing the problem.

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 15 11:58AM -0800 Five (5) of the last seven (7) topics in this venue were initiated by the same troll searching for validation.   And, between them, generated nearly 400 responses.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jan 15 02:41PM -0600 > And, between them, generated nearly 400 responses.   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   And probably a similar number of gooey wadded up Klenex tissues next to his desk.       -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 15 01:40PM -0800 On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 3:41:57 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:   > And probably a similar number of gooey wadded up Klenex tissues > next to his desk.   a) I doubt he bothers with the Kleenex - because: b) I doubt he has the capacity.

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 15 11:54AM -0800 On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 1:06:04 PM UTC-5, Tom Biasi wrote: > Anyone know where I can get a schematic of the control board for a > Whitfield Advantage Plus? > TIA, Tom   I would start with the mother ship:   Innovative Hearth Products 1508 Elm Hill Pike, Suite 108 Nashville, TN 37210   Phone: (615) 925-3428 Toll-free Phone: (800) 655-2008   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: Jan 15 09:45AM -0800 On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:37:25 AM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote: > Jeff-1.0 > WA6FWi > http:foxsmercantile.com   Maybe not quite that simple, but probably a factor.   See this article:   https://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120

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