- OT Extracting code from chips, deompiling - 16 Updates
- Hybrid IC questions - 8 Updates
- Source for quality tiny torx screwdriver bits? - 1 Update
| micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Dec 18 11:48AM -0500 OT Extracting code from chips, deompiling What is the current status of things. 1) Primarily, if a chip has computer code burned into it, can the code be retrieved by someone in possession of the chip?** 2) Assuming the answer to 1 is yes, what is the state of decompiling? Without the comments and data types, how often can the logic or the exact pre-compiled code be determined well enough to make one's own devices? **Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by disassembling the IC? Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical? Much harder? Impossible? |
| Terry Schwartz <tschw10117@aol.com>: Dec 18 08:57AM -0800 That's a big question. Some chips have built in security and some are wide open, depends on the programmer and the chips capabilities. Decompiling is another matter. While it may be possible to extract the code in some cases, it may not be useful once you have it. Reverse engineering a chip by disassembling the chip itself would be near impossible for Joe Average. Maybe the NSA can do it with sophisticated tools. Finally... theft of intellectual property is still theft. On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 10:48:32 AM UTC-6, micky wrote: |
| Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>: Dec 18 12:04PM -0500 On 12/18/18 11:48 AM, micky wrote: > What is the current status of things. > 1) Primarily, if a chip has computer code burned into it, can the code > be retrieved by someone in possession of the chip?** Usually. If the code protection modes aren't enabled, you can just read it back over the JTAG connector. > Without the comments and data types, how often can the logic or the > exact pre-compiled code be determined well enough to make one's own > devices? Dunno. If you have the binary, you can disassemble it, for sure. > **Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated > circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by > disassembling the IC? Yes. There are outfits that specialize in decapping ICs and producing transistor-level schematics, including estimated transistor characteristics from doping profiles, area, and so on. It's a very mainstream thing to do, but it costs a lot so you don't do it for niche products. IIRC they can also read out the flash by probing the decapped chip. > Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical? > Much harder? Impossible? Mechanical parts can have all sorts of secrets, e.g. for metals, cold working, heat treatment, surface modification (case hardening or metalliding), powder metallurgy and hot isostatic pressing (HIPping). Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |
| Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>: Dec 18 12:17PM -0500 On 12/18/18 11:57 AM, Terry Schwartz wrote: >> disassembling the IC? >> Is stealing design secrets harder than when everything was mechanical? >> Much harder? Impossible? (Top posting fixed) > That's a big question. Some chips have built in security and some are wide open, depends on the programmer and the chips capabilities. > Decompiling is another matter. While it may be possible to extract the code in some cases, it may not be useful once you have it. > Reverse engineering a chip by disassembling the chip itself would be near impossible for Joe Average. Maybe the NSA can do it with sophisticated tools. > Finally... theft of intellectual property is still theft. Reverse engineering is legal everywhere AFAIK. It doesn't get you around patents or copyrights, but any trade secret that can be discovered by examining an article offered for sale is no longer a trade secret. That includes the ideas in the binary, but not their expression, i.e. the binary itself, which is copyrighted. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |
| "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org>: Dec 18 05:43PM On 18/12/2018 17:04, Phil Hobbs wrote: [....] > Cheers > Phil Hobbs Moving even further off topic! Hi Phil :-) May I ask a favour? Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy? Some folk, I've noticed, are most reluctant to even put their BUSINESS information out on the Internet! I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live their life in fear. -- With kind regards, David B. My Blog about Dustin Cook: https://vxer.home.blog/2018/12/08/vxer-a-profile/ |
| Shadow <Sh@dow.br>: Dec 18 04:00PM -0200 On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:43:15 +0000, "David B." <"David >Moving even further off topic! Why change the thread ? Oh, I see. >Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish >your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one >should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy? He probably doesn't know you. If he reads this carefully https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php He will. I hope. YW []'s -- Don't be evil - Google 2004 We have a new policy - Google 2012 |
| "BurfordTJustice" <burford/associate@uk.MI15>: Dec 18 01:33PM -0500 cause he is not in a third world shithole like Brazil? "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message news:XkaSD.2981$922.936@fx06.fr7... : On 18/12/2018 17:04, Phil Hobbs wrote: : [....] : > Cheers : > : > Phil Hobbs : : Moving even further off topic! : : Hi Phil :-) : : May I ask a favour? : : Will you, please, explain in simple terms, why YOU are happy to publish : your personal details on-line when so much is written about how one : should be really careful about maintaining personal privacy? Some folk, : I've noticed, are most reluctant to even put their BUSINESS information : out on the Internet! : : I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live : their life in fear. : : -- : With kind regards, : David B. : : My Blog about Dustin Cook: https://vxer.home.blog/2018/12/08/vxer-a-profile/ |
| Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>: Dec 18 01:48PM -0500 On 12/18/18 12:43 PM, David B. wrote: > out on the Internet! > I simply do not understand why any good and honest citizen should live > their life in fear. Well, I'm self-employed, and expect to be for the rest of my career, so I don't have to worry about being ratted out to management or subjected to re-education to keep my job, or things like that. Second, my posts are generally helpful, good-tempered, and as accurate as I can make them, so there's not much danger of reputation damage. One exception is if some prospective customer doesn't like my politics and cares enough about it to not do business with me, in which case I'm happy to have them self-select. (I don't talk politics with customers.) Third, putting my contact info and a few keywords in my sig is a surprisingly effective SEO strategy. SED is widely mirrored on sites like narkive and electronics-related, so there are lots of links. Fourth, I'm a Christian, so there's nothing very important that any temporal power can do to me anyway. (They can make life temporarily unpleasant, of course.) Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 http://electrooptical.net http://hobbs-eo.com |
| "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org>: Dec 18 07:35PM On 18/12/2018 18:48, Phil Hobbs wrote: > Well, I'm self-employed, and expect to be for the rest of my career, so > I don't have to worry about being ratted out to management or subjected > to re-education to keep my job, or things like that. Understood! > exception is if some prospective customer doesn't like my politics and > cares enough about it to not do business with me, in which case I'm > happy to have them self-select. (I don't talk politics with customers.) I'd have no hesitation in asking for, and following, your advice. > Third, putting my contact info and a few keywords in my sig is a > surprisingly effective SEO strategy. SED is widely mirrored on sites > like narkive and electronics-related, so there are lots of links. Good thinking! :-) > Fourth, I'm a Christian, so there's nothing very important that any > temporal power can do to me anyway. (They can make life temporarily > unpleasant, of course.) Ah! THAT's the secret! I'm a Christian too! :-D https://thoughtcatalog.com/rania-naim/2017/11/if-you-trust-god-youll-never-be-afraid/ > Cheers > Phil Hobbs Many thanks, Phil. Pleased to meet you. -- Regards, David B. |
| "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org>: Dec 18 07:41PM On 18/12/2018 18:00, Shadow wrote: > He will. I hope. > YW > []'s It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ. When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow? -- Regards, David B. |
| Shadow <Sh@dow.br>: Dec 18 06:04PM -0200 On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 19:41:25 +0000, "David B." <"David >> []'s >It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ. >When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow? According to WOT, it has NEVER housed malware. In fact, I'm sure Phil can check it out for himself. Have you sent him an email asking him to crack a site for you yet ? And threatened to report him for pedo porn if he doesn't, or haven't you got through the usual foreplay yet ? []'s -- Don't be evil - Google 2004 We have a new policy - Google 2012 |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Dec 18 12:23PM -0800 On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:04:17 -0500, Phil Hobbs >Mechanical parts can have all sorts of secrets, e.g. for metals, cold >working, heat treatment, surface modification (case hardening or >metalliding), powder metallurgy and hot isostatic pressing (HIPping). Those can all be reverse engineered given expertise, time, and proper equipment. However, the one thing that cannot be reverse engineered in a mechanical system are the product tolerances. This becomes critical when dealing with tiny parts like MEMS devices, rotating memory components, and tight tolerance fasteners. Long ago, I was marginally involved in some industrial espionage. The only things taken were some key component tolerances. Everything else could be deduced or measured from the purchased product. Also, the end result of reverse engineering is not always an exact clone of the original product. More commonly, it's a "work alike" device, that has all the key features and patent violations, and carries its own collection of component and product tolerances. Close is usually good enough. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org>: Dec 18 08:48PM On 18/12/2018 20:04, Shadow wrote: >> When was the malware removed from the destination of that link, Shadow? > According to WOT, it has NEVER housed malware. In fact, I'm > sure Phil can check it out for himself. Then WOT must be incorrect. Here's visual proof that the site DID house malware:- https://www.dropbox.com/s/6nj382qhv4wzmju/Tekrider.net%20-%20Infected%20with%20malware%20%28Sucuri%29.tiff?dl=0 I've little doubt that Phil will be able to look after himself. > yet ? And threatened to report him for pedo porn if he doesn't, or > haven't you got through the usual foreplay yet ? > []'s No. You may twist things, Shadow, but you'll never change the truth. You've been helping the Devil to do his work and that will not be forgotten. -- David B. |
| mjb@signal11.invalid (Mike): Dec 18 09:17PM In article <pp8i1e598ivqknbj6msshr6ijc6ppm2051@4ax.com>, >**Related to this, 3) can the circuity in an IC or LSIC, intergrated >circuit or iirc large scale integrated circuit, be determined by >disassembling the IC? Yes. There's a fair few people chemically/mechanically de-encapsulating old chips where the design documents are lost/unavailable, and given a good enough picture of the bare die, and some optical analysis, you can recover the circuit with reasonable accuracy. It's been done with Sinclair related ULAs/CLAs, and similar projects for other 1980s era chips. How hard this gets on modern technology, where everything is tinier, layered, and sometimes designed deliberately to thwart reverse engineering is another thing ... From raw pictures, to schematics and working simulation of an Oric ULA, documented in detail here. NSA not involved :) http://oric.signal11.org.uk/html/ula-dieshot.htm http://oric.signal11.org.uk/files/pub/ula-dieshot/OricAtmosUnofficialULAGuide-2.00-WithSchems.pdf -- --------------------------------------+------------------------------------ Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk |
| Shadow <Sh@dow.br>: Dec 18 07:42PM -0200 On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 20:48:35 +0000, "David B." <"David >>>> YW >>>> []'s >>> It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ. Well, the drinking the wine part might be possible. >> According to WOT, it has NEVER housed malware. In fact, I'm >> sure Phil can check it out for himself. >Then WOT must be incorrect. And you, an "expert on decompiling binary code from hardware chips" (why else would you crash the thread) are correct ? >Here's visual proof that the site DID house malware:- >https://www.dropbox.com/CUT_POSSIBLE_MALWARE_DOWNLOAD Javascript is NOT malware, per se. You accused the site owner of hosting malware on 8 newsgroups, but only apologized on 2 when Sucuri admitted it made a mistake because of the hosts file. That was almost 2 years ago. A lifetime for your drunken memory. If I'm wrong, post a DIRECT link to the Sucuri analysis. >> haven't you got through the usual foreplay yet ? >> []'s >No. You may twist things, Shadow, but you'll never change the truth. Just tell us what part of the webpage about you is not true, and I'll ask the owner to change it. Maybe add some new nyms he forgot about ? []'s -- Don't be evil - Google 2004 We have a new policy - Google 2012 |
| "David B." <"David B"@nomail.afraid.org>: Dec 18 10:12PM On 18/12/2018 21:42, Shadow wrote: >>>>> []'s >>>> It's now apparent that he and I are already part of the body of Christ. > Well, the drinking the wine part might be possible. You don't have to Prove you are a cretin, Shadow. >> Then WOT must be incorrect. > And you, an "expert on decompiling binary code from hardware > chips" (why else would you crash the thread) are correct ? Certainly not, as well you know. >> Here's visual proof that the site DID house malware:- >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6nj382qhv4wzmju/Tekrider.net%20-%20Infected%20with%20malware%20%28Sucuri%29.tiff?dl=0 > Javascript is NOT malware, per se. No one ever explaine why that Javascript was ON the website. Phile might be interested to view this finding too:- https://www.dropbox.com/s/7lnpy4pez26jlta/Tekrider%20URL%20-%20Javascript%20site.jpeg?dl=0 > because of the hosts file. That was almost 2 years ago. A lifetime for > your drunken memory. > If I'm wrong, post a DIRECT link to the Sucuri analysis. https://sitecheck.sucuri.net/results/tekrider.net The malware was quickly removed to save embarassment - the site owner WAS once a professional and SHOULD have been more careful. :-( > and I'll ask the owner to change it. Maybe add some new nyms he forgot > about ? > []'s I don't mind him stalking me, just as you do. Maybe you'll explain why YOU propogate his website yet he does not? Has anybody ever suggested that you may be one and the same entity? -- Regards, David B. |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Dec 18 09:16AM -0800 I have a CNC machine with a FANUC control. The control uses what the web calls "hybrid ICs". It looks like these devices consist of some sort of IC and/or others ICs and pasive devices. The control is old enough that getting new boards is kind of a crap shoot. And I have replaced bad boards with good used boards only to have them fail sometime later. I want to have a stock of known good boards. So I need to test the boards but I don't really have the expertise. I'll need to figure it out as I go. One thing that might help is to find out what is under the epoxy or whatever is covering the devices on the hybrid ICs. These are parts from the 1980s. Can the coating be removed without damaging whatever is underneath? Is it likely the devices on the hybrid board will be identifiable once exposed? I have looked for datasheets and pinouts on the hybrids but no luck yet. Maybe I need to look harder. Thanks, Eric |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Dec 18 09:36AM -0800 > yet. Maybe I need to look harder. > Thanks, > Eric To your 2 questions: no chance. NT |
| John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Dec 18 10:04AM -0800 > yet. Maybe I need to look harder. > Thanks, > Eric The hybrid ICs that I have done postmortems on usually had the semiconductor dies directly on the substrate, so that there would be no individual part numbers, polarity markings, or road mapping. I used to repair plasma IPMs, but most of the time you could see the IGBT die blown right off the board. I used to put those on a heat block (ceramic substrate, **very** hard to wet solder on if the heat soak wasn't mitigaged) and solder SMD IGBTs to the substrate after carefully cutting away the blow dies, assuming there was room. But those only had a viscous snot potting the circuit and was easily removed. Others like Sanken STK hybrids did not use potting beneath the outer cover. |
| Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com>: Dec 18 06:55PM On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:36:50 -0800, tabbypurr wrote: > To your 2 questions: no chance. Some ingenious folks manage it, though! I believe they use a strong acid, then when all the muck is washed away they reverse engineer the chip underneath. Fucked if *I* could! -- This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition. |
| Pat <forums@greensdomain.com>: Dec 18 03:24PM -0500 >yet. Maybe I need to look harder. >Thanks, >Eric Hybrid might also refer to a digital IC on the same die as an analog IC. It doesn't matter, though. As others have said, it is unlikely that you could ID parts and replace just what went bad. It might be easiler (but still very difficult) to use one of the newer single chip micros or hobby boards to emulate the entire bad circuit board's function. Pat |
| Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com>: Dec 18 02:46PM -0600 On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:16:36 -0800, etpm wrote: > These are parts from the 1980s. Can the coating be removed without > damaging whatever is underneath? Is it likely the devices on the hybrid > board will be identifiable once exposed? Sorry to be crude, but it is a "fool's errand" to try to keep one of these old controls running. I know, I did the same, but moved to something maintainable as soon as it was available. You ought to look at LinuxCNC. It can almost certainly do more than your ancient Fanuc control, and it is entirely repairable. You can use the existing motors, Fanuc's were VERY good! Some of their encoders are proprietary, but my company (Pico Systems) makes converters for most of them. You can do a complete retrofit for less than a couple used boards will cost. I've been using LinuxCNC since 1998, have had to upgrade old PCs several times as they got obsolete and cranky. And, I've upgraded the LinuxCNC software several times, as new, "gotta have" features were added. Jon |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Dec 18 12:52PM -0800 > I have a CNC machine with a FANUC control. The control uses what >the web calls "hybrid ICs". It looks like these devices consist of >some sort of IC and/or others ICs and pasive devices. Yep. A local machine shop had a Mori Seiki 5 axis mill with a Fanuc controller. Lousy photo at top of: <http://www.santacruzprecision.com/equipment.htm> I was the unofficial repairman. The owner of the shop sold it about 3 years ago and retired. He's still around, but all the Fanuc paperwork and spare boards went to the buyers. I also used to design and make hybrid electronics in the late 1960's for Alpha Electronics, a manufacturer of 2-way radio accessories. The hybrids were used in CTCSS encoder/decoder boards and in early LED digital watches. Under the hybrid is essentially a custom "circuit board" build on an alumina ceramic substrate, with conductive traces and resistors silk screened and baked onto the substrate. All of them were custom made for some specific purpose, which makes them very difficult to source should the supply dry up. For example, the HP8640B RF signal generator has a hybrid RF power amp output stage that tends to self destruct. HP no longer makes or sells them, so creative repairs and replacements are epidemic. <https://www.ve7ca.net/TstH86.htm#HK14> You're probably going to be faced with a similar problem. It might be possible to replace a hybrid with a work alike device on a PCB, but then you would need a schematic of the hybrid internals, which you probably don't have and is probably difficult to find. Here's one attempt to reverse engineer the HP8640B hybrid: <https://www.ve7ca.net/TST/H86/hybrid.png> Not the lack of detail, such as xsistor part numbers. >I'll need to figure it out as I go. One thing that might help is to >find out what is under the epoxy or whatever is covering the devices >on the hybrid ICs. I did some of that many years ago. Similar problem, but no hybrids or exotic parts. I ended up building a test fixture with a spring pins at all key test points. The fixture simulated the operation of the machine, which was a controller for an old rotary blade lumber mill. You could do the same with the Fanuc controller boards, except I seem to recall that there were about 8 boards in the controller cage, which would turn this into a major project. I only had to make one fixture. > These are parts from the 1980s. Can the coating be removed without >damaging whatever is underneath? Is it likely the devices on the >hybrid board will be identifiable once exposed? No and no. You could probably soften the coating, but if you try to pull on it, it will tear apart the wire bonds even if the transistors and IC's are coated with junction compound. > I have looked for datasheets and pinouts on the hybrids but no luck >yet. Maybe I need to look harder. Have you considered removing all the Fanuc stuff and replacing it with a more modern CNC controller and motor control? I did that a few months ago on a Shizuoka vertical mill replace an aging Bandit controller: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/CNC-conversion/index.html> Total cost of the 3 servos, 3 motor drivers, controller, and a mess of incidentals was about $2,000. The choice was to try to keep the Bandit alive a little longer, or to rip it out and start over. Starting over turned out to be better, easier and cheaper. However, if you want to continue to do battle with the Fanuc controller, you might check on the Fanuc forum on CNCzone: <https://www.cnczone.com/forums/fanuc/> Hint: If really you want help with something, it's usually helpful to provide the model number of the machine and controller. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Dec 18 02:09PM -0800 On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:52:31 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote: ><https://www.cnczone.com/forums/fanuc/> >Hint: If really you want help with something, it's usually helpful to >provide the model number of the machine and controller. To Jon and Jeff, Yes, I have considered replacing the control. And I consider it more every day. I have done this before and it worked well. This machine has a turret, tailstock, and counter that would need some sort of PLC programming to interface with the control. I might need to learn ladder programming again. And you are correct Jeff, I shoulda provided the control info. The control is a FANUC 3T. Tha part is a FANUC A-RV06. The problem with changing the control is that I need enough time when the machine is not needed to make the swap. The bigger problem is that the original control has, until recently, been robust and completely trouble free, and I am nervous about ripping it out. I just need to do the research on new controls, how to interface the turret and other stuff, and then go for it. But now I have parts to run. Thanks eveyone, Cheers, Eric |
| Chuck <ch@dejanews.net>: Dec 18 12:31PM -0600 On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:20:24 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote: >current version which I detest. Notice the sides of the Torx bits. >The old version has sides that are parallel, while the new version is >tapered, producing a smaller point of contact, and a sloppy fit. Jeff, Didn't know they changed. I have the old version. |
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