sci.electronics.repair - 24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: older motherboard with intel chipset
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0e3adf44e483f1ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 9:39 am
From: Adrian C

On 25/11/2010 11:37, mike wr
> the puter boots into normal mode, but tells me I have to call for
> product activation in 30 days. How nice of them...

Had you started with an actual Dell OEM OS installation CD instead of
eMachines restore disc, it would automatically self activate from its
knowledge of the BIOS signature. No manual entering of product keys
necessary.

I think you are running into some post install junk that the eMachines
CD is trying to push out. Note, a 'recovery/restore CD' and an 'OS
installation CD' may not be the same thing.

--
Adrian C

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 7:07 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

Backtracking.. first of all, I never expect used equipment to operate
perfectly, much less when I encounter something that was discarded (found in
a dump/ster).

I dunno if the BB store label was an indication that the unit was a customer
return that couldn't be/wasn't economically practical to try to figue out,
or that it was just a BB store product that some customer threw away.

When used equipment does turn out to be fully functional (as it often does),
that's just a bonus.

Someone had already decided that it was trash, so expectations of it working
properly could be unrealistic, you see.

Whe I mentioned a linux Live CD, I was referring to the linux OS not being
installed, just run Live as thay will often do, from the CD drive (as almost
all m-bds now boot from the CD).
A HDD isn't even required.

Some linux Live versions will be more favorable with certain types of system
hardware.
Several years ago, I bought about 12 different flavors of linux OSs, most of
'em Live CDs (cheap, from from an eBay'er). I know they can be downloaded
for "free" from numerous websites but I was on dialup service at the time.

Try a couple/few different linux Live CDs (no HDD or any other unneeded
stuff), if there are problems with all attempts, there's very likely
something wrong with the m-bd.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"mike" <mlightner@survivormail.com> wrote in message
news:6b3dfbcc-4c5b-4b44-81f6-37e81f3a5775@p20g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Greetings technically gifted net-denizens,
>
> I recently acquired an older Dell Dimension 2350 motherboard, along
> with what I
> believe is the original 48x CD-rom drive. It ended up in the scrap
> yard after first residing at the best-buy repair facility (I'm kinda
> reading between the lines here, it has a sticker on it which is dated
> August, 2010 and has their name on it) and from what info I've
> gathered so far, it was made some time around 2003 or 4.
>
> I've probably spent enough time so far to reload the operating system
> (only tried MS product so far) about 30 times now, and have gathered
> info and files from both the Intel and the Dell support sites, I've
> done multiple reloads of XP pro w/sp2; but, I finally ended up with a
> kinda-successful install by using the restore discs for a E-machines
> system that I used to have (that was made around the same time, and
> had the same speed processor and a couple other similarities,
> including an Intel chipset).
>
> I say it was a 'kinda successful install' because I can start it up
> in safe mode and do further set up to it, but it wants me to call MS
> product activation before it will boot in normal mode.
>
> Anyway, I think the main problem is that the chipset needs to have
> some special software available to it on startup so it 'knows' how to
> interpret the OS - it's called
> 'infinst.exe' and from the literature is spose to be installed in
> certain location on the
> HDD before XP is loaded (plus, I think the BIOS tells the machine that
> the OS should be XP Home, not Pro). When I try to run the chipset
> setup utility available from either Intel or Dell, I get a message
> telling me that I don't have permission to do that or some such - I
> can create the directories specified, but when the program runs an
> error occurs and stops the installation.
>
> Just wondering if someone here can shed some light as to what is going
> on, and maybe even describe the process that these Intel-specific
> machines required when putting in a new HDD (besides cloning from the
> old hdd).
>
> So far I've been using various diagnostic utilitiy packages that are
> available around the 'net', including 'PartEd magic',
> 'YetAnotherBootDisc', 'UltimateBootCD 4.1.1', 'UBCDforWIN'; I've
> found that I can't run the chipset software from DOS, always get a
> message that "this progam must be run from windows".
>
> So, anybody got any hints? As always, TIA.
>
> Mike

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 7:26 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:07:15 -0500, Wild_Bill wrote:

> Backtracking.. first of all, I never expect used equipment to operate
> perfectly, much less when I encounter something that was discarded
> (found in a dump/ster).
>
> I dunno if the BB store label was an indication that the unit was a
> customer return that couldn't be/wasn't economically practical to try to
> figue out, or that it was just a BB store product that some customer
> threw away.
>
> When used equipment does turn out to be fully functional (as it often
> does), that's just a bonus.
>
> Someone had already decided that it was trash, so expectations of it
> working properly could be unrealistic, you see.
>
> Whe I mentioned a linux Live CD, I was referring to the linux OS not
> being installed, just run Live as thay will often do, from the CD drive
> (as almost all m-bds now boot from the CD).
> A HDD isn't even required.
>
> Some linux Live versions will be more favorable with certain types of
> system hardware.
> Several years ago, I bought about 12 different flavors of linux OSs,
> most of 'em Live CDs (cheap, from from an eBay'er). I know they can be
> downloaded for "free" from numerous websites but I was on dialup service
> at the time.
>
> Try a couple/few different linux Live CDs (no HDD or any other unneeded
> stuff), if there are problems with all attempts, there's very likely
> something wrong with the m-bd.

I can recommend Mandriva Live as a Mandriva user for 5 years. Currently
using Mandriva 2010 on a quad core AMD PhenomII 955 processor on an Asus
Mainboard. Install was flawless. All drivers were on the install disk
and additional software packages galore available for free download.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 8:08 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

From a diagnosis perspective, a Live CD of linux is very cost effective -
free. Time consuming in that it may take 10-20 minutes to determine if the
distro "likes" the hardware.
Hard or difficult work.. zero.

I know from trying several Live CDs on an older laptop (that works fine),
that some Live linux distros will run fine, and 1 or 2 may hang up.. that's
why I suggested several different versions/distros for attempting to
evaluate a m-bd.

Later, the infinite reasons why hack/spit M-soft products don't like the
hardware and firmware can be addressed.. if the user even wants to know
(user has unlimited time and a concern).

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.11.26.03.26.30@lmao.lol.lol...
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:07:15 -0500, Wild_Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Whe I mentioned a linux Live CD, I was referring to the linux OS not
>> being installed, just run Live as thay will often do, from the CD drive
>> (as almost all m-bds now boot from the CD).
>> A HDD isn't even required.
>>
>> Some linux Live versions will be more favorable with certain types of
>> system hardware.
>> Several years ago, I bought about 12 different flavors of linux OSs,
>> most of 'em Live CDs (cheap, from from an eBay'er). I know they can be
>> downloaded for "free" from numerous websites but I was on dialup service
>> at the time.
>>
>> Try a couple/few different linux Live CDs (no HDD or any other unneeded
>> stuff), if there are problems with all attempts, there's very likely
>> something wrong with the m-bd.
>
> I can recommend Mandriva Live as a Mandriva user for 5 years. Currently
> using Mandriva 2010 on a quad core AMD PhenomII 955 processor on an Asus
> Mainboard. Install was flawless. All drivers were on the install disk
> and additional software packages galore available for free download.
>
> Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Linksys BEFSX41 Router
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a86d5f8be1d77191?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 9:50 am
From: rush14

On Nov 24, 9:41 am, root <NoEM...@home.org> wrote:
> The router doesn't see the WAN connection. Is
> there any hope that it is fixable?
>
> I have reset it to initial status, and the
> 4xswitch side works.
>
> TIA

I had a similar experience with the same router and found a bad
electrolytic (bulging) to be at fault.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 3:07 pm
From: Baron

Meat Plow Inscribed thus:

> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:59:54 +0000, baron wrote:
>
>> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>>
>>> On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:21:57 +0000, Baron wrote:
>>>
>>>> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:41:29 +0000, root wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The router doesn't see the WAN connection. Is there any hope that
>>>>>> it is fixable?
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately that is quite a common problem. Often spikes on the
>>>> incoming line kill the circuit. You may find if your lucky that
>>>> the
>>>> voltage arrester just behind the WAN socket is SC. Otherwise its
>>>> just usable as switch.
>>>
>>> What's your source for the common problem? The WAN connection
>>> usually ends up on the Ethernet connection of a DSL or Cable modem
>>> which itself should be protected. This can be verified by attaching
>>> the PC directly to the WAN connection and trying to ping the modem's
>>> default IP address for HTTP port configuration or trying to go to
>>> the modem config page at that address.
>>>
>>>
>> My bad ! :-(
>> I forget that here in the UK the router normally connects directly to
>> the phone line and over there the modem is often a separate device.
>> Sorry !
>
> The telco here offers a combo switch/router/dsl modem. I have one
> around here made by 2wire.
>
>> Although the protection circuitry behind the socket is still worth
>> checking.
>
> If the OP is adventurous yes. However it may not be worth the money to
> replace parts and if the protection has crowbarred the WAN port
> running the router without protection could result in future damage to
> the transceiver.
>

True ! Though spark gaps and TVS diodes are commonly used for
protection.

Oddly I got one to fix just after my last post. TVS diode dead short.
Lift the diode and it works again. New diode needed.
Problem ! House coded. A PKE170 is the same physical size and should
do.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 5:24 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 23:07:19 +0000, Baron wrote:

> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>
>> On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:59:54 +0000, baron wrote:
>>
>>> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:21:57 +0000, Baron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:41:29 +0000, root wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The router doesn't see the WAN connection. Is there any hope that
>>>>>>> it is fixable?
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately that is quite a common problem. Often spikes on the
>>>>> incoming line kill the circuit. You may find if your lucky that the
>>>>> voltage arrester just behind the WAN socket is SC. Otherwise its
>>>>> just usable as switch.
>>>>
>>>> What's your source for the common problem? The WAN connection usually
>>>> ends up on the Ethernet connection of a DSL or Cable modem which
>>>> itself should be protected. This can be verified by attaching the PC
>>>> directly to the WAN connection and trying to ping the modem's default
>>>> IP address for HTTP port configuration or trying to go to the modem
>>>> config page at that address.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> My bad ! :-(
>>> I forget that here in the UK the router normally connects directly to
>>> the phone line and over there the modem is often a separate device.
>>> Sorry !
>>
>> The telco here offers a combo switch/router/dsl modem. I have one
>> around here made by 2wire.
>>
>>> Although the protection circuitry behind the socket is still worth
>>> checking.
>>
>> If the OP is adventurous yes. However it may not be worth the money to
>> replace parts and if the protection has crowbarred the WAN port running
>> the router without protection could result in future damage to the
>> transceiver.
>>
>>
> True ! Though spark gaps and TVS diodes are commonly used for
> protection.
>
> Oddly I got one to fix just after my last post. TVS diode dead short.
> Lift the diode and it works again. New diode needed. Problem ! House
> coded. A PKE170 is the same physical size and should do.

I've never had to or been called to repair these things. Last damaged
Ethernet device I encountered was a 24 port Cisco Catalyst series managed
10/100 switch that had suffered a proximity lightning strike knocking out
several ports. It was replaced, no way I would tackle a repair.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Learning Electrical Repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b65ce2f782c18000?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 11:09 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

frank@notvalid.it wrote:
>
> >
> > Offhand, I've never seen a book that covers transistor-circuit operation in
> > a simple way, or that discusses how one uses that knowledge when trouble
> > shooting.
>
> "The Art of Electronics" covers all that matters from simplest to complex
> electronic circuits.

The third edition has been 'due any doay now' for several years. :(

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 12:00 pm
From: frank@notvalid.it

William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:
>> One good text is "Troubleshooting Analog Circuits" by
>> Bob Pease, but that's not intended for newcomers to
>> the electronic world (my opinion).
>
> I believe that is book focuses on correcting design problems, not fixing
> existing equipment. (I have a copy, but have only browsed it.)

more or less yes, but gives quite some hints about how to check for problems
whether or not caused by design flaws.
As I said, I believe that fixing things works best when one knows how to
make those things from scratch. Many won't agree with me of course.
Regards

Frank

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 1:57 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 11/25/2010 4:38 AM William Sommerwerck spake thus:

[other attribution lost due to W.S.'s lax method of quoting]

>>> The "correct" way to learn about transistors is to find a
>>> college-level book. This requires understanding matrix
>>> transformations, but you'll have a better understanding.
>
>> Hmm, I remember having to derive Schrodinger's equations
>> from first principles for my University exams.
>> Can't say that in all my years of repairing and designing
>> electronic equipment that this long forgotten knowledge
>> has ever have been at all useful.
>
> What does Schrodinger have to do with circuit design, anyway?
>
> The poster wanted to "learn about transistors". I think understanding at
> least H parameters is worthwhile.

No, you're starting to play that Usenet game called "Telephone". The
O.P. said nothing about transistors; I brought up the subject. Dunno if
they're even interested in that.

> Offhand, I've never seen a book that covers transistor-circuit operation in
> a simple way, or that discusses how one uses that knowledge when trouble
> shooting.

I have a book right here that does an excellent job of explaining
transistors and diodes, both their theories of operation and practical
usage in circuits: it's Albert Paul Malvino's /Electronic Principles/
(1979), including knowledge useful for troubleshooting. One of the
best-written texts on the subject I've read.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 7:54 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

I agree, that most textbooks don't provide much info that is in any way
helpful to understand transistor operation, from a troubleshooting
perspective.

Back in the mid-late 80s there was a guy named Vince Diehl(sp?) that
developed a piece of test equipment for quickly troubleshooting TV startup
problems on the then-popular chopper circuit/flyback-scan-derived-LV chassis
designs.

The tester's important feature was to clearly indicate that the fault was in
a particular section of the chassis, so wasted time checking the other
sections was eliminated.
The only circuit connection required was a plug that was installed in place
of the HOT.

He was offering anyone a significant reward (maybe $100k in 2 page magazine
ads) if they could correctly diagnose a faulty/dead chassis problem faster
with any of Sencore's equipment, or any other brand.

Anyway, Vince also had (or access to) some publishing equipment, and had
written some very good troubleshooting procedure booklets, one part being
about transistor operation.. a couple of basic rules-of-thumb were described
as:

A transistor is a switch, sometimes operated slowly, sometimes fast,
partially on or fully on.
Changing the present state of the switch only required about 0.6V, basically
from any source of the correct potential (but he gave much more detailed
examples).

His approaches for troubleshooting were described differently than any other
source that I've seen.

Homer Davidson was a popular author then, with a background in electronic
repair (I believe), and I don't remember one thing I read that he'd written
after reading several of his books (often filled with pics of modern test
equipment, but basically just parroted stuff common to many electronic
books).

Sencore later developed a tester that also had a plug that was inserted in
place of the HOT.
I once asked a Sencore "application engineer"/salesman if they were
concerned about Vince's reward challenge, and if Vince might've been a
former equipment engineer at Sencore.
His answers seemed intentionally vague to me.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:icllbk$plj$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> What does Schrodinger have to do with circuit design, anyway?
>
> The poster wanted to "learn about transistors". I think understanding at
> least H parameters is worthwhile.
>
> Offhand, I've never seen a book that covers transistor-circuit operation
> in
> a simple way, or that discusses how one uses that knowledge when trouble
> shooting.
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Output transformer ambiguity
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b4d4e3e6c8232295?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 11:48 am
From: Jeff Layman

On 25/11/2010 14:09, Steve Sousa wrote:
>
>
> "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:8l2pujF1hkU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> ** Assuming the transformers are the same size and do the same job,
>> the one with the 4000 ohm primary is stuffed.
>>
>>
>>> I measured the turns ratio using a signal generator at 1khz and got
>>> 45,6 and 46,0
>>
>>
>> ** Do not use a comma for the decimal point - it is way too confusing.
>>
>>
>>
>> ..... Phil
>>
>
> Hello
>
> Wouldn't it be possible to have an original 4000ohm shorted to 900ohm too?
>
> Best Regards

Are these of any use:
http://www.vvttransformers.co.uk/vtp135200.htm
http://www.vvttransformers.co.uk/vtp206300.htm

Jeff

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 12:01 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Steve Sousa"
> "Phil Allison"
>>
>> ** Assuming the transformers are the same size and do the same job, the
>> one with the 4000 ohm primary is stuffed.
>>
>>
>>> I measured the turns ratio using a signal generator at 1khz and got 45,6
>>> and 46,0
>>
>>
>> ** Do not use a comma for the decimal point - it is way too confusing.
>>
>
> Wouldn't it be possible to have an original 4000ohm shorted to 900ohm too?

** No.

The ratio between rated primary Z and winding resistance is never less than
5:1 and is typically 10:1 or more.

.... Phil

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 5:11 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 11/25/2010 12:01 PM Phil Allison spake thus:

> "Steve Sousa" wrote:
>
>> "Phil Allison" wrote:
>>>
>>> ** Assuming the transformers are the same size and do the same job, the
>>> one with the 4000 ohm primary is stuffed.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be possible to have an original 4000ohm shorted to 900ohm too?
>
> ** No.
>
> The ratio between rated primary Z and winding resistance is never less than
> 5:1 and is typically 10:1 or more.

You may have a point there.

OK, let's climb down into N. Cook's pit of bodgery and post mortem
analysis and look at this.

It all depends on the expected failure mode of a transformer, correct?
Two main possibilities here: open windings, or shorted windings (or I
suppose a combination). Obviously not an open winding, so probably
shorted ones.

Shorted windings could be within the primary or secondary, or between.
Let's look at the simpler case, shorted within the primary, which should
be 4K ohms.

It seems most likely that any short would be between adjacent layers of
windings. Not likely that there'd be a short from close to one end to
close to the other end. Which should limit the effect of the short. So
if the 4K ohm primary is now 900 ohms, there's something else going on.

But what? Could there be a short from the winding to the iron core?

Has the O.P. checked for a short between primary and secondary? How
about shorts to the core/frame of the xfmr?

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 5:22 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"David Nebenzahl = Idiot "

>>
>>> Wouldn't it be possible to have an original 4000ohm shorted to 900ohm
>>> too?
>>
>> ** No.
>>
>> The ratio between rated primary Z and winding resistance is never less
>> than 5:1 and is typically 10:1 or more.
>
> You may have a point there.
>
> OK, let's climb down into N. Cook's pit of bodgery and post mortem
> analysis and look at this.
>
> It all depends on the expected failure mode of a transformer, correct? Two
> main possibilities here: open windings, or shorted windings (or I suppose
> a combination). Obviously not an open winding, so probably shorted ones.

** Shame about the third and most likely scenario - one that makes the
primary R go way high.

Think " vertigris " .....

..... Phil

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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 6:12 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:moCdned0vcf6x3PRnZ2dnUVZ7vmdnZ2d@bt.com...
> Ahaha belay that, I just found that the values are printed on the pcb
> below the heatsink.

Belay, Ron ? Are you a naval man ? :-)

Arfa

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 25 2010 7:12 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

There's gotta be a good joke wrt Arfa's question, but I'll leave that as it
is.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0IEHo.176440$Dv.158098@newsfe07.ams2...
>
>
> "Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
> news:moCdned0vcf6x3PRnZ2dnUVZ7vmdnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Ahaha belay that, I just found that the values are printed on the pcb
>> below the heatsink.
>
> Belay, Ron ? Are you a naval man ? :-)
>
> Arfa

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 26 2010 12:52 am
From: Ron

On 26/11/2010 02:12, Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>
> "Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
> news:moCdned0vcf6x3PRnZ2dnUVZ7vmdnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Ahaha belay that, I just found that the values are printed on the pcb
>> below the heatsink.
>
> Belay, Ron ? Are you a naval man ? :-)
>
> Arfa

Actually, I do have a bit of a thing for a nicely formed belly button -
on a woman of course.

Ron (Salty)

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