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TOPIC: instructor solution manual for Introduction to Signal Processing by S.
J. Orfanidis
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/642b518165a4d7a4?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:45 pm
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2nd E by Chan S. Park
instructor solution manual for FUNDAMENTALS OF ENGINEERING
ELECTROMAGNETICS, by DAVID CHENG
instructor solution manual for Fundamentals of Engineering
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12th edition James C. Van Horne, Wachowicz
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by Munson
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instructor solution manual for Fundamentals of Heat and Mass Transfer
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Halliday, Robert Resnick & Jearl Walker)
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Halliday, Resnick, Walker
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Stochastic Processes (3rd Ed., Saeed Ghahramani)
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Tang)
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1st Edition by Anderson
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Using the Web and Matlab (3rd Ed., Kamen & Bonnie S Heck)
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by Chih-Tang Sah
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Ed by Leet
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by Sonntag, Borgnakke and Van Wylen
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Addison Wesley
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instructor solution manual for HARCOURT MATHEMATICS 12 Advanced
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instructor solution manual for Higher Algebra 3rd edition by Hall and
Knight
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Cormen, Leiserson
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William Wade
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Thermodynamics (7th Ed., Smith & Van Ness)
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Electric Circuits, 6E,
Dorf
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Electrodynamics (3rd
Ed., David J. Griffiths)
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2nd Ed by David Griffiths
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Bridger
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Robert Fox, Alan McDonald & Philip)
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edition by Alan T. McDonald, Robert W Fox
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S. Arpaci, Ahmet Selamet, Shu-Hsin Kao
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Java Programming,
Comprehensive Version 7th Ed by Liang
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Ed., by Gilbert Strang
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14 ED by Horngren, Schatzberg
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Probability by Dimitri
P. Bertsekas and John N. Tsitsiklis
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Probability by
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Ed., David J. Griffiths)
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J. Orfanidis
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Signal Processing by
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Ed by Kittel & Charles
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Thermal Systems
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instructor solution manual for Investments by Charles P. Jones
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Albert Vannice
instructor solution manual for Laser Fundamentals (2nd Ed., William T.
Silfvast)
instructor solution manual for Learning SAS in the Computer Lab 3rd ED
by Elliott, Morrell
instructor solution manual for Lectures on Corporate Finance 2006, 2
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instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra - 2 Ed - Poole
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra and Its Applications 3rd
ed by David C. Lay
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra Done Right, 2nd Ed by
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instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra with Applications (6th
Ed., S. Leon)
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instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra, 4th Ed, by Stephen H.
Friedberg , Arnold J. Insel , Lawrence E. Spence
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra, by J. Hefferon
instructor solution manual for Linear Circuit Analysis Time Domain,
Phasor and Laplace.., 2nd Ed, Lin
instructor solution manual for Linear Systems And Signals, 1stE, B P
Lathi
instructor solution manual for Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals,
2E, by Morris Mano and Charles Kime
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3d edition by Morris Mano and Charles Kime
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4/E, by Morris Mano and Charles Kime
instructor solution manual for Machine Design : An Integrated Approach
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instructor solution manual for Managing Business Process Flows:
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instructor solution manual for Managing Engineering and Technology
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instructor solution manual for Materials Science and Engineering- An
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instructor solution manual for Mathematical Analysis, Second Edition
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instructor solution manual for Mathematical Methods for Physicists 5
Ed, Arfken
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Jordan & P Smith
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instructor solution manual for Mechanical Engineering Design 8th Ed by
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instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Fluids (8th Ed., Massey)
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instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Materials 5 edition by
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instructor solution manual for Mechanics Of Materials Beer Johnston
3rd
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C. Hibbeler
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instructor solution manual for Microeconomic Theory by Segal Tadelis
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instructor solution manual for Microeconomic Theory, by Mas-Colell,
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instructor solution manual for Microeconomics, 6th Ed by Pyndick,
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instructor solution manual for Microelectronic Circuit Analysis and
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instructor solution manual for Microelectronic Circuit Design (3rd
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instructor solution manual for Microelectronic Circuits By Adel Sedra
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instructor solution manual for Microelectronic Circuits, 5th Ed. by
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instructor solution manual for Microelectronics Digital and Analog
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instructor solution manual for Microelectronics I & II by Dr.Chang
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instructor solution manual for Microwave and Rf Design of Wireless
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instructor solution manual for Microwave Engineering, 3rd Ed., by
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instructor solution manual for Microwave Transistor Amplifiers
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instructor solution manual for Mobile Communications 2nd ed by Jochen
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instructor solution manual for Modern Control Engineering 3rd Ed. - K.
OGATA
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OGATA
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OGATA
instructor solution manual for Modern Control Systems 11E by Richard C
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JAIN
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Roberto Cristi
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Orlin
instructor solution manual for Nonlinear Programming ,2ndEdition ,
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instructor solution manual for Numerical Computing with MATLAB by
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instructor solution manual for Numerical Methods for Engineers (3rd
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instructor solution manual for Numerical Solution of Partial
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Silberschatz, Galvin, Gagne
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principles 4th Edition Stallings
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E by Knight
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instructor solution manual for Power Electronics Converters,
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William P. Robbins
instructor solution manual for Power System Analysis and Design, 3 E.,
by Glover, Sarma
instructor solution manual for Power System Analysis and Design,4E.,
by Glover, Sarma
instructor solution manual for Power System Analysis,John J. Grainger
William D. Stevenson
instructor solution manual for Power Systems Analysis - 2nd Edition by
Hadi Saadat
instructor solution manual for POWER SYSTEMS ANALYSIS by HADI SAADAT
instructor solution manual for Principles and Applications of
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instructor solution manual for Principles of Communications- Systems,
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by Brealey, Myers
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coding by Andrew J. Viterbi and Jim K. Omura
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Devices 2ed by Safa O. Kasap
instructor solution manual for Principles of Geotechnical Engineering
6th edition by Braja M. Das
instructor solution manual for Principles Of Mathmatical Analysis by
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Serway, Jewett
instructor solution manual for Probability & Statistics for Engineers
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instructor solution manual for Probability and Statistical Inference
( 8th Ed, Hogg & Tanis )
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instructor solution manual for Probability and Statistics for
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instructor solution manual for Probability and Statistics in
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instructor solution manual for Probability and Stochastic Processes
2E, by Roy D. Yates , David J. Goodman
instructor solution manual for Probability Concepts in Engineering
Emphasis on Applications to Civil and Environmental Engineering 2nd ED
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instructor solution manual for Probability For Risk Management,
Hassett, Stewart
instructor solution manual for Probability Random Variables, and
Stochastic Processes, 4th Ed., by Papoulis, Pillai
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Stochastic Processes, 3rd Edition Athanasios Papoulis
instructor solution manual for Probability, Statistics, and Random
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instructor solution manual for Probability, Statistics, and Random
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instructor solution manual for Problems and Solutions on
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instructor solution manual for Problems in general physics by I. E
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instructor solution manual for Problems in General Physics vol.I &
vol.II Irodov
instructor solution manual for Psychology and Life 16th ed by Gerrig
and Zimbardo
instructor solution manual for Psychology and Life by Gerrig &
Zimbardo ,16th edition
instructor solution manual for Quantitative Methods for Management by
PINNEY, McWILLIAMS, ORMSBY, ATCHISON
instructor solution manual for Quantum Field Theory Mark Srednicki
instructor solution manual for Quantum Mechanics - B. Brinne
instructor solution manual for Quantum Mechanics: An Accessible
Introduction (Robert Scherrer)
instructor solution manual for Quantum Physics of Atoms, Molecules,
Solids, Nuclei and Particles by Eisberg
instructor solution manual for Quantum Physics, 3rd Edition, by
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instructor solution manual for Quantum theory of light 3 Ed by Rodney
Loudon
instructor solution manual for Real Analysis 1st Edition by H. L.
Royden
instructor solution manual for Recursive Methods in Economic Dynamics,
(2002) by Irigoyen, Rossi- Hansberg, Wright
instructor solution manual for Reinforced Concrete: Mechanics and
Design (5th Ed., James G. MacGregor & James K. Wight)
instructor solution manual for RF Circuit Design: Theory &
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instructor solution manual for Satellite Communications 2nd Ed By
Timothy Pratt, Charles W. Bostian
instructor solution manual for Scientific Computing with Case Studies
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instructor solution manual for Semiconductor Device Fundamentals by
Pierret
instructor solution manual for SEMICONDUCTOR DEVICES Physics and
Technology 2nd Ed by SZE
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instructor solution manual for Semiconductor Physics and Devices (3rd
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instructor solution manual for Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design
(8th Ed., Budynas)
instructor solution manual for Signal Processing and Linear Systems by
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instructor solution manual for Signal Processing by Mclellan, Schafer
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instructor solution manual for Signals and Systems 2e by Haykin & B
Van Veen
instructor solution manual for Signals and Systems 2nd Edition
Oppenheim, Willsky and Nawab
instructor solution manual for Signals and Systems Analysis of Signals
Through Linear Systems by M.J. Roberts, M.J. Roberts
instructor solution manual for Signals and Systems, 2nd Edition,
Oppenheim, Willsky, Hamid, Nawab
instructor solution manual for Signals and Systems: Analysis Using
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instructor solution manual for Signals, Systems & Transforms 4 ED by
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instructor solution manual for Simply C# - An Application-Driven (TM)
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instructor solution manual for Skill - Assessment Exercises to
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instructor solution manual for Soil Mechanics 7th ed by R. F. Craig
instructor solution manual for Soil Mechanics Concepts and
Applications, 2nd Ed., by Powrie
instructor solution manual for Solid State Electronics 5th ed by Ben
Streetman, Sanjay Banerjee
instructor solution manual for Solid State Physics by Ashcroft &
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instructor solution manual for Solving ODEs with MATLAB (L. F.
Shampine, I. Gladwell & S. Thompson)
instructor solution manual for Special Relativity (P.M. Schwarz & J.H.
Schwarz)
instructor solution manual for Statics and Mechanics of Materials, 2/
E., By Russell C. Hibbeler
instructor solution manual for Statistical Digital Signal Processing
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instructor solution manual for Statistical Inference 2e by Casella G.,
Berger R.L. and Santana
instructor solution manual for Statistical Inference, Second Edition
Casella-Berger
instructor solution manual for Statistics and Finance - An
Introduction by David Ruppert
instructor solution manual for Statistics for Business and Economics 8
ED by Anderson, Sweeney
instructor solution manual for Statistics for Business and Economics 9
ED by Anderson, Sweeney
instructor solution manual for Steel Design, 4th Edition Segui
instructor solution manual for Stochastic Processes An Introduction by
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instructor solution manual for Strength of Materials 4th Ed. by
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instructor solution manual for Structural Analysis (5th Edition) by
R.C. Hibbeler
instructor solution manual for Structural Analysis (7th Edition) by
R.C. Hibbeler
instructor solution manual for Structural analysis 3rd Edition Aslam
Kassimali
instructor solution manual for Structural and Stress Analysis (2nd
Ed., Megson)
instructor solution manual for Structural Steel Design 4th Ed by
McCormac
instructor solution manual for Surveying - Principles & Applications
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instructor solution manual for Surveying with Construction
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instructor solution manual for System Dynamics 3rd Ed. by Katsuhiko
Ogata
instructor solution manual for System Dynamics and Response, S. Graham
Kelly
instructor solution manual for System Dynamics by William Palm III
instructor solution manual for Techniques of Problem Solving by Luis
Fernandez
instructor solution manual for The Calculus 7ed by Louis Leithold
instructor solution manual for The Chemistry Maths Book 2nd ED by
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: TVs compatible, from one continent to the next??
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/38d677af192b8653?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:01 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"
Meat Plow wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:57:53 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > Sjouke Burry wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >> > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> >> >>>>> I doubt that any American member of this group has adjusted the
> >> >>>>> Hue control on their NTSC set for at least 30 years.
> >> >>>> True. US receivers use the VIR (Vertical Interval Reference) on
> >> >>>> line 20 for chroma phase correction to automagically correct both
> >> >>>> static and differential phase errors. I think this started in
> >> >>>> about 1980.
> >> >> ??? How can the reference signal correct a differential phase error?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > PLL circuits allowed the signals to remain in sync.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>> ** So fucking what ?????????????????? NTSC color started in the
> >> >>> USA in the early 1950s.
> >> >>> The famous irreverent NTSC acronym way predates 1980. You stupid,
> >> >>> fucking cunthead.
> >> >> The point being that the problems with NTSC had nothing to do with
> >> >> the design of the system, but the failure of the networks to
> >> >> establish high standards of image and signal quality. As these were
> >> >> gradually put into place, the supposed "inherent problems" with NTSC
> >> >> gradually disappeared. This WAS NOT due to the use of VIR on
> >> >> consumer receivers. VIR was primarily to catch and correct problems
> >> >> along the signal chain.
> >> >>
> >> >> The lie that PAL is somehow inherently superior to NTSC refuses to
> >> >> die. NTSC is the "better" system. Period.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> NTSC-->Never The Same Color?????????
> >> People with green faces, and mangenta sky's? Any time we saw a news
> >> item with a bit of American tv in it, it looked like shit.
> >
> >
> > So it's our fault that your network wasn't capable of doing proper
> > video conversion? Did you ever stop to think that they just didn't give
> > a damn, and making it look bad made their other crap look better?
>
> How did this devolve into a PAL/NTSC pissing match? From what little TV I
> watch in the evening, HD channels on TWC, I think the color rendering is
> perfect. And NTSC DVD video is the same. So what's the problem here? A
> lack of real things to argue about?
It starts every time PAL is mentioned. :(
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
== 2 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:01 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <Z4-dnV0bkObeFLHQnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Other thing is control room monitors (Grade 1) are designed for close
> > viewing, so generally in the smaller sizes. Nor have I ever seen a
> > widescreen CRT with decent geometry and registration. Control room CRTs
> > even for widescreen were still 4:3, but underscanned, making the small
> > size even more of an issue.
> Our control room used 25 to 30 inch monitors.
4:3. So as I said a small size when showing 16:9. If indeed you ever saw
16:9 pictures in the studio.
> Underscan was
> switchable. A mask was used with lines to show the hot area for cheap,
> overscanned TV sets.
You think all 'cheap overscanned TV sets' had the same 'hot' area?
And why would the engineer in charge of the actual pictures care about
home overscan? That would be left to the production side.
> Tell us, how many US TV stations did you work at
> as an engineer? How many state of the art NTSC studios have you built?
> How many years of maintaining a commercial US TV station?
I'm beginning to wonder how well you've kept up with things. Not much by
the sound of it.
--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 3 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:15 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <pan.2011.01.11.19.13.38@lmao.lol.lol>,
Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote:
> How did this devolve into a PAL/NTSC pissing match? From what little TV I
> watch in the evening, HD channels on TWC, I think the color rendering is
> perfect. And NTSC DVD video is the same. So what's the problem here? A
> lack of real things to argue about?
Don't think you've been following things. DVDs as such don't have either
an NTSC or PAL footprint unless the originating material had.
--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 4 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:11 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <NMmdnX3J6-jQBrHQnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Don't care where they were from - you can't judge any system using
> > domestic tapes of those days. I'm beginning to wonder about your
> > personal standards if you think you can.
> Yawn. More America bashing.
Eh? Well I suppose you are American.
> Commercially produced European tapes on European VCR & TV.
And you think commercially produced VHS or BetaMax tapes are suitable for
judging any system? And you claim to have worked in broadcasting?
> > > > The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the
> > > > first instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO
> > > > tubes. Had a modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way
> > > > forward, they'd not have adopted (and been part of the design) of
> > > > PAL.
> >
> > > Image Orthicons? That figures.
> >
> > Just when do you think colour cameras stopped using them? The plumbicon
> > wasn't invented until '60.
> I have no idea when the BBC quit using them, but Image Orthicons were
> short lived in the US.
IOs where in use for mono up until the late '60s. Colour started off with
4 tube plumbicons.
> The RCA TK-44 was a vidicon color camera. The
> TK 46 was the same camera, but using Plumbicons. Image Orthicons
> required a lot more light, and didn't provide as clean of an image as
> the Vidicons. A Plumbicon is a Vidicon with a lead oxide faceplate.
IO were more sensitive than videcon. Only videcon colour cameras I've seen
were low end industrial.
--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 5 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:39 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <NMmdnX3J6-jQBrHQnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Don't care where they were from - you can't judge any system using
> > > domestic tapes of those days. I'm beginning to wonder about your
> > > personal standards if you think you can.
>
> > Yawn. More America bashing.
>
> Eh? Well I suppose you are American.
>
> > Commercially produced European tapes on European VCR & TV.
>
> And you think commercially produced VHS or BetaMax tapes are suitable for
> judging any system? And you claim to have worked in broadcasting?
>
> > > > > The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the
> > > > > first instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO
> > > > > tubes. Had a modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way
> > > > > forward, they'd not have adopted (and been part of the design) of
> > > > > PAL.
> > >
> > > > Image Orthicons? That figures.
> > >
> > > Just when do you think colour cameras stopped using them? The plumbicon
> > > wasn't invented until '60.
>
> > I have no idea when the BBC quit using them, but Image Orthicons were
> > short lived in the US.
>
> IOs where in use for mono up until the late '60s. Colour started off with
> 4 tube plumbicons.
>
> > The RCA TK-44 was a vidicon color camera. The
> > TK 46 was the same camera, but using Plumbicons. Image Orthicons
> > required a lot more light, and didn't provide as clean of an image as
> > the Vidicons. A Plumbicon is a Vidicon with a lead oxide faceplate.
>
> IO were more sensitive than videcon. Only videcon colour cameras I've seen
> were low end industrial.
And you think the few cameras you've seen are suitable for judging
any system? Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean they weren't
built. I was using an RCA TK-16 Vidicon camera in the service that was
built in the late '60s.
Vidicon cameras were usable in low light, properly designed. Not
that the BBC was renowned for state of the art. I saw one of the first
single gun color TV cameras in 1972/73, built by Magnavox for industrial
video applications. That was at Ft. Rucker, Al. where the video
production section was looking into newer cameras. If you consider 2"
Ampex industrial video, you might argue. The mobile production units
were several tractor trailers full, and they had just bought the first
Tektronix U-matic decks built.
http://afrts.dodmedia.osd.mil/heritage/page.asp?pg=archive_email1 About
half way down has an email I sent to a DOD website about the history of
AFRTS.
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
== 6 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:42 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <Z4-dnV0bkObeFLHQnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Other thing is control room monitors (Grade 1) are designed for close
> > > viewing, so generally in the smaller sizes. Nor have I ever seen a
> > > widescreen CRT with decent geometry and registration. Control room CRTs
> > > even for widescreen were still 4:3, but underscanned, making the small
> > > size even more of an issue.
>
> > Our control room used 25 to 30 inch monitors.
>
> 4:3. So as I said a small size when showing 16:9. If indeed you ever saw
> 16:9 pictures in the studio.
>
> > Underscan was
> > switchable. A mask was used with lines to show the hot area for cheap,
> > overscanned TV sets.
>
> You think all 'cheap overscanned TV sets' had the same 'hot' area?
Sigh. Did your mother have any kids without brain damage? Quit
trying to put words in my mouth, you aren't smart enough to even try.
Proper camera work made sure that the active portion of any image was
properly framed. Proper framing was for near worst case TVs. No one
gave a shit if your $139 jpanese TV cut off 25% all the way around the
image.
> And why would the engineer in charge of the actual pictures care about
> home overscan? That would be left to the production side.
>
> > Tell us, how many US TV stations did you work at
> > as an engineer? How many state of the art NTSC studios have you built?
> > How many years of maintaining a commercial US TV station?
>
> I'm beginning to wonder how well you've kept up with things. Not much by
> the sound of it.
>
> --
> *Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?
>
> Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
> To e-mail, change noise into sound.
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
== 7 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:00 pm
From: Meat Plow
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:24:06 +0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> Meat Plow wrote:
>> How did this devolve into a PAL/NTSC pissing match? From what little TV
>> I watch in the evening, HD channels on TWC, I think the color rendering
>> is perfect. And NTSC DVD video is the same. So what's the problem here?
>> A lack of real things to argue about?
>
> It got there because there had to be some justification over which
> system was chosen other than the country next door did something else.
> Then it devoloved from ignorance of existance of multisystem TVs and
> VCRs into justification why they could not exist.
>
> To summarize, by 1985 I had bought, in Philadelphia (USA) the following:
> TV set, 19 inch, 25 inch and 14 inch and VHS and BETA VCRS which would
> play and record NTSC/60 3.57, NTSC/60 4.43, PAL/50, PAL/60 (TV only)
> and SECAM/50 video. Tuners for NTSC, European PAL, UK PAL and non
> French SECAM (aka Middle East SECAM).
>
> In 1987 I added a VCR that would record and play PAL/60 and French
> SECAM.
>
> In 1992 I added a VCR that would do digital conversions between any of
> the above.
>
> Geoff.
I've no experience in PAL or SECAM whatsoever. But to just unilaterally
claim the NTSC is inferior I just don't see it. So there must be more to
the story. Maybe politics in some wild manner? That tends to piss people
off.
--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
== 8 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:07 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"
> Don't think you've been following things. DVDs as such
> don't have either an NTSC or PAL footprint unless the
> originating material had.
I don't think that's correct. There are differences in the number of
scanning lines and frame rate on NTSC and PAL DVDs.
With regard to your comment -- which is something like "there's no water in
a glass unless you've poured water into it" -- what sort of non-PAL or
non-NTSC-format material would you record on a video DVD?
== 9 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:12 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"
> I've no experience in PAL or SECAM whatsoever.
> But to just unilaterally claim the NTSC is inferior --
> I just don't see it. So there must be more to the
> story. Maybe politics in some wild manner? That
> tends to piss people off.
It appears that the incorrect belief that PAL is "superior" is based on the
fact that PAL is somewhat self-correcting for non-linear phase errors, and
that one can build a receiver that automatically corrects for static phase
errors in the burst or subcarrier.
These features, of course, have nothing whatever to do with the /basic/
image quality of the system, and aren't needed if the video distribution
system is properly designed and maintained.
In every other respect, NTSC is objectively superior to PAL.
== 10 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:18 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <3-CdnZGZxPKod7HQnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And you think the few cameras you've seen are suitable for judging
> any system? Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean they weren't
> built. I was using an RCA TK-16 Vidicon camera in the service that was
> built in the late '60s.
You appear only to have heard of RCA cameras.
> Vidicon cameras were usable in low light, properly designed. Not
> that the BBC was renowned for state of the art.
Really?
> I saw one of the first
> single gun color TV cameras in 1972/73, built by Magnavox for industrial
> video applications. That was at Ft. Rucker, Al. where the video
> production section was looking into newer cameras.
Can you name a broadcast use for a single tube colour camera? Apart from
stunt stuff where it would be destroyed.
> If you consider 2"
> Ampex industrial video, you might argue. The mobile production units
> were several tractor trailers full, and they had just bought the first
> Tektronix U-matic decks built.
U-matic? Only ever used for news stuff here. And office viewing before VHS.
1" C Format ruled until the arrival of Beta SP and MII.
--
*Acupuncture is a jab well done*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 11 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:26 pm
From: Jeffrey Angus
On 1/11/2011 6:00 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
> I've no experience in PAL or SECAM whatsoever. But to just unilaterally
> claim the NTSC is inferior I just don't see it. So there must be more to
> the story. Maybe politics in some wild manner? That tends to piss people
> off.
People like to make stupid acronyms.
Innovations People Don't Need and Always Off Line for example.
When you call them on it, they go sideways, just like asking
a person to explain "why" they feel the way they do when you
ask them a political or religious question.
You'll get the same response mentioning Bill Gates and Micro
Soft. Despite that fact that without MS and the accidental
release of the IBM PC architecture we wouldn't have the speed
or power at the price we have now.
And of course, when psycho's off their meds get involved,
Well....
Jeff
== 12 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:25 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <pan.2011.01.12.00.00.20@lmao.lol.lol>,
Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've no experience in PAL or SECAM whatsoever. But to just unilaterally
> claim the NTSC is inferior I just don't see it. So there must be more to
> the story. Maybe politics in some wild manner? That tends to piss people
> off.
Don't think anyone with sense claims any of these are universally
superior. Each had merits and de-merits.
Think it goes something like this:-
NTSC gives the best pictures in the studio.
SECAM records best.
PAL transmits best.
--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 13 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:22 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <WNudnb6b-u9rd7HQnZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > 4:3. So as I said a small size when showing 16:9. If indeed you ever
> > saw 16:9 pictures in the studio.
> >
> > > Underscan was switchable. A mask was used with lines to show the
> > > hot area for cheap, overscanned TV sets.
> >
> > You think all 'cheap overscanned TV sets' had the same 'hot' area?
> Sigh. Did your mother have any kids without brain damage? Quit
> trying to put words in my mouth, you aren't smart enough to even try.
> Proper camera work made sure that the active portion of any image was
> properly framed. Proper framing was for near worst case TVs. No one
> gave a shit if your $139 jpanese TV cut off 25% all the way around the
> image.
So why the mask on the monitors if 'proper camera work made sure that the
active portion of any image was properly framed'? Cameramen not trusted?
Only time I saw an electronic mask displayed on a production control room
monitor was when things were destined for 16mm telerecording only.
> > And why would the engineer in charge of the actual pictures care about
> > home overscan? That would be left to the production side.
Notice you've omitted to answer this...
--
*(over a sketch of the titanic) "The boat sank - get over it
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 14 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:29 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"
In article <igirbc$205$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Don't think you've been following things. DVDs as such
> > don't have either an NTSC or PAL footprint unless the
> > originating material had.
> I don't think that's correct. There are differences in the number of
> scanning lines and frame rate on NTSC and PAL DVDs.
There are - but neither are *fundamental* to PAL or NTSC.
> With regard to your comment -- which is something like "there's no water
> in a glass unless you've poured water into it" -- what sort of non-PAL
> or non-NTSC-format material would you record on a video DVD?
If the material is sourced from a composite PAL recording, it will retain
the PAL footprint.
--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
== 15 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:18 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <WNudnb6b-u9rd7HQnZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > 4:3. So as I said a small size when showing 16:9. If indeed you ever
> > > saw 16:9 pictures in the studio.
> > >
> > > > Underscan was switchable. A mask was used with lines to show the
> > > > hot area for cheap, overscanned TV sets.
> > >
> > > You think all 'cheap overscanned TV sets' had the same 'hot' area?
>
> > Sigh. Did your mother have any kids without brain damage? Quit
> > trying to put words in my mouth, you aren't smart enough to even try.
> > Proper camera work made sure that the active portion of any image was
> > properly framed. Proper framing was for near worst case TVs. No one
> > gave a shit if your $139 jpanese TV cut off 25% all the way around the
> > image.
>
> So why the mask on the monitors if 'proper camera work made sure that the
> active portion of any image was properly framed'? Cameramen not trusted?
maybe on your planet. A cameraman has a lit of things to pay
attention to. The lines on his monitor make it easy to frame the shot.
Not that you would know.
>
> Only time I saw an electronic mask displayed on a production control room
> monitor was when things were destined for 16mm telerecording only.
>
> > > And why would the engineer in charge of the actual pictures care about
> > > home overscan? That would be left to the production side.
>
> Notice you've omitted to answer this...
No matter what answer yo got you would still pull out a ruler to
measure yor dick so there was no reason to give you the pleasure.
>
> --
> *(over a sketch of the titanic) "The boat sank - get over it
Another case of UK engineering gone very bad - get over it.
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
== 16 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:27 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <3-CdnZGZxPKod7HQnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > And you think the few cameras you've seen are suitable for judging
> > any system? Just because you didn't see them doesn't mean they weren't
> > built. I was using an RCA TK-16 Vidicon camera in the service that was
> > built in the late '60s.
>
> You appear only to have heard of RCA cameras.
Sigh. You appear to bbe an idiot. RCA & GE made most of the studio
cameras in the US. A few stations got screwed when they bought Philips
cameras that had no factory support and few spare parts.
> > Vidicon cameras were usable in low light, properly designed. Not
> > that the BBC was renowned for state of the art.
>
> Really?
it makes as much sense as the bullshit you're posting.
> > I saw one of the first
> > single gun color TV cameras in 1972/73, built by Magnavox for industrial
> > video applications. That was at Ft. Rucker, Al. where the video
> > production section was looking into newer cameras.
>
> Can you name a broadcast use for a single tube colour camera? Apart from
> stunt stuff where it would be destroyed.
Yes they were used for ENG before color CCD cameras were availible.
> > If you consider 2"
> > Ampex industrial video, you might argue. The mobile production units
> > were several tractor trailers full, and they had just bought the first
> > Tektronix U-matic decks built.
>
> U-matic? Only ever used for news stuff here. And office viewing before VHS.
>
> 1" C Format ruled until the arrival of Beta SP and MII.
So, you used 2" until the other formats were availible? Umatic was
second generation video for use in classrooms, dubbed from the broadcast
grade masters. Long beofre VHS or any beta crap was availible. I used
1" Sony at WACX in orlando for the master edit suit. OTOH, I had 13
Sony U-Matics at the transmitter site for the LaCarte Video automation
system. WACX had better video quality than most of the other stations
in the market. The worst used Beta and it was obvious.
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
== 17 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 6:18 pm
From: "Brenda Ann"
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
news:51942912a5dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <pan.2011.01.12.00.00.20@lmao.lol.lol>,
Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I've no experience in PAL or SECAM whatsoever. But to just unilaterally
> claim the NTSC is inferior I just don't see it. So there must be more to
> the story. Maybe politics in some wild manner? That tends to piss people
> off.
Don't think anyone with sense claims any of these are universally
superior. Each had merits and de-merits.
Think it goes something like this:-
NTSC gives the best pictures in the studio.
SECAM records best.
PAL transmits best.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read in broadcast periodicals that PAL needed to be converted to NTSC
in the studio in order to use video effects switching, etc., then converted
back for transmission. Since the two are virtually the same base signals,
this confused me.
== 18 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 7:02 pm
From: Jeffrey Angus
On 1/11/2011 7:27 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> So, you used 2" until the other formats were availible? Umatic was
> second generation video for use in classrooms, dubbed from the broadcast
> grade masters. Long beofre VHS or any beta crap was availible. I used
> 1" Sony at WACX in orlando for the master edit suit. OTOH, I had 13
> Sony U-Matics at the transmitter site for the LaCarte Video automation
> system. WACX had better video quality than most of the other stations
> in the market. The worst used Beta and it was obvious.
Back in 1970 I took course "TV production" in my Senior year.
We had a nice 1" tape deck and a mixer/fader console along with
two dolly mounted cameras.
By 1971, the students had trahed enough of the equipment, so
that they were using a 1/2" Sone deck and hand helds on tripods.
Sigh, what a waste of studio grade gear.
Jeff
==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT--Actual elecytronics repair question
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/1c7563aead5e20a6?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:28 pm
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
In article <DO3Xo.9499$MD5.8388@newsfe23.ams2>,
Gareth Magennis <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote:
>> Yaesu VX-5R tri-band hand held. Momentary contact power on/off button.
>>
>> I've owned this radio for 9 or 10 years. Recently I have to push several
>> times on this rubber on/off button to get the radio to come on. But it
>> always takes just one touch to turn it off. And the radio works fine
>> otherwise including all the other buttons. Just have to play around
>> pressing the button maybe three/four/five times. Sometimes it powers on
>> when pressed once! But always shuts off with just one easy push.
>> This indicates to me that it's not a problem with button contact but
>> rather a microprocessor problem.
>Could be a microprocessor controlled delay programme whereby you have to
>hold the on button on for longer to turn it on, than the off button to turn
>it off. Perhaps because it is more important to screen out accidental ons
>than accidental offs.
>
>And/Or, If the button is dirty, and thus resets its state randomly/rapidly
>during a single press, perhaps this results in favour of the Off debounce
>and/or delay routines rather than the "On" routines.
Quite reasonable suggestions.
The usual "field engineering" fix would be to simply replace the
elastomeric key membrane (Yaesu used to make this available as a
standard service item for the VX-5; dunno if it's still available) or
use the CAIG contact-repair kit to re-goop the back of the POWER
button and see if increasing its conductivity fixes the problem.
--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:51 pm
From: Meat Plow
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 14:28:38 -0800, Dave Platt wrote:
> In article <DO3Xo.9499$MD5.8388@newsfe23.ams2>, Gareth Magennis
> <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>>> Yaesu VX-5R tri-band hand held. Momentary contact power on/off button.
>>>
>>> I've owned this radio for 9 or 10 years. Recently I have to push
>>> several times on this rubber on/off button to get the radio to come
>>> on. But it always takes just one touch to turn it off. And the radio
>>> works fine otherwise including all the other buttons. Just have to
>>> play around pressing the button maybe three/four/five times. Sometimes
>>> it powers on when pressed once! But always shuts off with just one
>>> easy push. This indicates to me that it's not a problem with button
>>> contact but rather a microprocessor problem.
>
>>Could be a microprocessor controlled delay programme whereby you have to
>>hold the on button on for longer to turn it on, than the off button to
>>turn it off. Perhaps because it is more important to screen out
>>accidental ons than accidental offs.
>>
>>And/Or, If the button is dirty, and thus resets its state
>>randomly/rapidly during a single press, perhaps this results in favour
>>of the Off debounce and/or delay routines rather than the "On" routines.
>
> Quite reasonable suggestions.
>
> The usual "field engineering" fix would be to simply replace the
> elastomeric key membrane (Yaesu used to make this available as a
> standard service item for the VX-5; dunno if it's still available) or
> use the CAIG contact-repair kit to re-goop the back of the POWER button
> and see if increasing its conductivity fixes the problem.
I had the unit apart way back when it was new to install the MARS
coverage modification which was just a snip of a wire. The keypad was
that of silicone rubber and a carbon dot on the working side. Pretty
standard. Plus another membrane for water protection. The unit isn't
rated as being water resistant but obviously a handy talkie should have
some moisture resistance. I wouldn't rule out Gareth's observation. It
probably is easier to kill the process than to start it. Only one thing
bothers me and that is I have the add on barometric pressure sensing unit
and it displays when the VX-5 is off. So the microprocessor runs while
the unit is off unless the pressure unit has its own processing.
--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:56 pm
From: Meat Plow
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:18:28 +0000, Gareth Magennis wrote:
> "Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2011.01.11.19.31.34@lmao.lol.lol...
>> Yaesu VX-5R tri-band hand held. Momentary contact power on/off button.
>>
>> I've owned this radio for 9 or 10 years. Recently I have to push
>> several times on this rubber on/off button to get the radio to come on.
>> But it always takes just one touch to turn it off. And the radio works
>> fine otherwise including all the other buttons. Just have to play
>> around pressing the button maybe three/four/five times. Sometimes it
>> powers on when pressed once! But always shuts off with just one easy
>> push. This indicates to me that it's not a problem with button contact
>> but rather a microprocessor problem.
>>
>> Discuss.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Could be a microprocessor controlled delay programme whereby you have to
> hold the on button on for longer to turn it on, than the off button to
> turn it off. Perhaps because it is more important to screen out
> accidental ons than accidental offs.
>
> And/Or, If the button is dirty, and thus resets its state
> randomly/rapidly during a single press, perhaps this results in favour
> of the Off debounce and/or delay routines rather than the "On" routines.
>
>
> Dunno, just a guess.
Yeah it's a good guess and makes sense however, the optional barometric
pressure sensing unit displays when the unit is off. So some processing
remains. That and the battery discharges faster when placed and the unit
is off over being removed from the unit even without the barometric unit
installed. So again even when powered on their must be some degree of
processing going on. Anyway, when it gets to the point where it is hard
to get the VX-5 to turn on I'll tear it apart. Things are pretty
compressed and it isn't the easiest of things to work on.
--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Microwave timer/clock 4 digit 7-segmnt display is out. Timer works fine.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/f9d37ccd9c82199e?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 6:12 pm
From: Spehro Pefhany
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:06:03 -0500, the renowned "Angelo Campanella"
<a.campanella@att.net> wrote:
>
>"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:igh3nm$i55$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> So what are some of the numbers on the chips inside and any numbers seen
>> on
>> the sides of the display/s ?
>
>I managed to pry out 7-segment digit #2 chip for inspection.
>
>It's an HP 5082-7730 609-C, 19mm x 10 mm, 14-pin (3 missing) pluggable chip.
>
> It has a matte face, transparent at the 7 segments to interior solid state
>material.
>
>The bottom side is filled with clear pink potting where a PC board holding
>the pins is visible.
>
> Ange
That's just a regular old 0.3" seven-segment common-anode LED display,
like the old Monsanto MANxxx displays.
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/31/319472_1.pdf
Extremely low efficiency by modern standards, but good quality for the
day.
We've got an antique Amana Radarrange with similar red LED displays.
Here's a more modern equivalent that is pin-compatible:
http://www.kingbrightusa.com/images/catalog/SPEC/SA03-11EWA.pdf
(but more than 10x as bright at the same current)
But it's not likely the displays that are causing the problem-
probably the drivers or some connections or circuitry further back.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 6:17 pm
From: Spehro Pefhany
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:12:40 -0500 Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:06:03 -0500, the renowned "Angelo Campanella"
><a.campanella@att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:igh3nm$i55$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>> So what are some of the numbers on the chips inside and any numbers seen
>>> on
>>> the sides of the display/s ?
>>
>>I managed to pry out 7-segment digit #2 chip for inspection.
>>
>>It's an HP 5082-7730 609-C, 19mm x 10 mm, 14-pin (3 missing) pluggable chip.
>>
>> It has a matte face, transparent at the 7 segments to interior solid state
>>material.
>>
>>The bottom side is filled with clear pink potting where a PC board holding
>>the pins is visible.
>>
>> Ange
>
>
>That's just a regular old 0.3" seven-segment common-anode LED display,
>like the old Monsanto MANxxx displays.
>
>http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/31/319472_1.pdf
>
>Extremely low efficiency by modern standards, but good quality for the
>day.
>
>We've got an antique Amana Radarrange with similar red LED displays.
>
>Here's a more modern equivalent that is pin-compatible:
>http://www.kingbrightusa.com/images/catalog/SPEC/SA03-11EWA.pdf
>(but more than 10x as bright at the same current)
(well, pin compatible on the segments, but it has a right-hand decimal
point rather than the rare left-hand on the microwave oven, so not
really 100% compatible...)
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
==============================================================================
TOPIC: 12 volt automotive sealed beam lamps in series
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/fbedfb20fe2856fd?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 7:01 pm
From: Spehro Pefhany
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:54:59 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 17:22:27 -0500, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >klem kedidelhopper wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have a 24 volt military truck that I use for snow plowing. In the
>> >> past I've had trouble finding 6000 series 24 volt sealed beam lamps
>> >> for the plow frame.. And when I did I have found them to be very
>> >> expensive. So I came up with a circuit using a DPDT switch in which
>> >> both the high and low circuit lamp filaments are wired in series when
>> >> power is applied. I was very careful to initially select two lamps
>> >> that drew exactly the same current when tested on my bench power
>> >> supply. The arrangement has worked flawlessly for the past few years.
>> >> The other night I had occaision to look at the lights from outside the
>> >> truck while it was running. Charging voltage on a 24 volt system can
>> >> run as high as 28 volts on a typical 24 volt system. Although I didn't
>> >> try to measure the voltage accross each lamp, I noticed that one lamp
>> >> is slightly brighter than the other on the low circuit. I'm assuming
>> >> that filament is getting weaker and thinner and will likely fail
>> >> shortly. And of course when that happens I'll lose the low circuit. I
>> >> can rematch two more lamps but before I do the thought occurred to me
>> >> if there was any practical easy way the equalise the voltage accross
>> >> both lamps in order to compensate for any minute differences in
>> >> filament resistance. I think that the total current, (two lamps in
>> >> series) is about 5.0 amps. Thanks for any suggestions. Lenny
>> >
>> >
>> > How about a 24 V to 12 V converter to power the headlamps? National
>> >Semiconductor makes the 'Simple Switcher' series of regulators.
>>
>> You could also just buy a DC-DC converter.. 24:12 at 200W will run
>> around $170, in stock at Mouser.
>>
>> http://www.meanwell.com/search/SD-200/SD-200-spec.pdf
>>
>> Looks expensive compared to the raw components, perhaps, but I'll bet
>> most parts for your truck cost more than that.
>>
>> There's enough adjustment range that you can set it to 13.8VDC or
>> whatever you think should be nominal. It will also run the lights at
>> full brightness with the motor off (at the expense of some battery
>> life, of course).
>
>
> Probably, but it's 14 years old and I've not spent more than $100 in
>repairs in the 3 years I've owned it. :)
Okay, then, if $170 is too much, how about $7.56 including shipping?
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.36230
They also have 15A/20A for 14.89/16.42 including shipping.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
==============================================================================
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