sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* another puzzler - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b80657d8be4c22cd?hl=en
* Can a microwave oven have its output imited? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/956ea2dbdf891e16?hl=en
* Recycling electronic waste. - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/da679f4848b11be7?hl=en
* jordan shoe <free shipping paypal payment>(http:// www.airmax-seller.com/) -
1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b0e44849950618f7?hl=en
* Help with wiring colors on old headphones - 12 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/f8481990f5c47309?hl=en
* Tektronix 475 sweep triger repair?? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3c588027fdccde25?hl=en
* Zimo DCC info ? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/93fbd838f0d4056e?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: another puzzler
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b80657d8be4c22cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, May 17 2011 10:11 pm
From: spam@spam.com (Don Pearce)

On Tue, 17 May 2011 21:29:45 -0500, "David" <someone@somewhere.com>
wrote:

>"philicorda" wrote in message
>news:EtEAp.608$Ky.286@newsfe24.ams2...
>
>On Tue, 17 May 2011 20:05:34 +0000, Carey Carlan wrote:
>
>> spamtrap1888 <spamtrap1888@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:c5220357-4ddd-43ac-935c-fc50796b2c9d@z15g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>> Just as in flipping coins.
>>>> Getting 5 heads in a row is 1/32.
>>>> But getting the 5th head after already getting 4 is still
>>>> 1/2.
>>>
>>> The big difference: In the Monty Hall problem there is only
>>> one "coin
>>> flip". Only one random choice is made -- the first choice of a
>>> door. In
>>> the coin flip situation, there are five coin flips, five
>>> random
>>> choices.
>>>
>>> Now, in contrast, if the car and remaining goats were randomly
>>> shuffled
>>> after each goat door was revealed, then the situation would be
>>> different. But in the MHP problem the car does not move.
>>
>> Still trying to get my head around this.
>>
>> How would shuffling unknown values affect my choice? If I
>> didn't know
>> before and you shuffle the choices, it's still a random choice
>> on my
>> part.
>
>The host acts as a leak of information. It might help to imagine
>an
>alternate game, where the host does not know the contents of the
>doors,
>and the game is void if the host reveals the car. This version
>puts you
>back to 50/50 when the host reveals a goat, whether you switch
>doors or
>not.
>***
>Not true. When the host reveals a goat whether he guessed or knew
>it was there makes absolutely no difference. You should still
>switch doors.
>
>David
>

If the host does not know, he might quite as easily reveal the car.
You then can't win it. Do you guarantee yourself 2/3 odds by switching
then? No. If the host reveals a goat by chance, the odds do indeed
drop to 50/50.

d

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 5:52 am
From: "Arny Krueger"

"Randy Yates" <yates@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:B9ydnXmRQo_4r07QnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com
> On 05/14/2011 06:48 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "spamtrap1888"<spamtrap1888@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:dd7c10fd-38c7-43e2-9db6-5c4e25f4a946@35g2000prp.googlegroups.com
>>
>>> Declaring that there is no connection between the two
>>> situations is the source of the poster's error. Monty
>>> Hall knew if the player was correct or not, and so the
>>> player's choice of the door in the first round
>>> influenced the selection of the goat door. The graphic
>>> helps you understand that there are still three
>>> scenarios once a goat door has been revealed.
>>
>> I get it now.
>
> I think, several years ago when I originally saw this, I
> argued as vehemently as you, Arny. It is extremely
> counter-intuitive, which goes to show intuition isn't
> always right!

In my studies of this item, I found a statement that about 10% of
*everybody* never gets it, regardless of their intelligence or education.

That suggests to me that some people learn things about problem solving that
keep them from seeing certain solutions. The trick is to not do that, or if
you do, somehow redirect how you approach these things.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 6:44 am
From: "David"

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4dd3548d.36447387@news.eternal-september.org...
>The host acts as a leak of information. It might help to imagine
>an
>alternate game, where the host does not know the contents of the
>doors,
>and the game is void if the host reveals the car. This version
>puts you
>back to 50/50 when the host reveals a goat, whether you switch
>doors or
>not.
>***
>Not true. When the host reveals a goat whether he guessed or
>knew
>it was there makes absolutely no difference. You should still
>switch doors.
>
>David
>

If the host does not know, he might quite as easily reveal the
car.
You then can't win it. Do you guarantee yourself 2/3 odds by
switching
then? No. If the host reveals a goat by chance, the odds do
indeed
drop to 50/50.

d
***
Sorry, I disagree. Yes the host could reveal a car if he is
unaware of the situation. If this happens, the game was defined
as void. If the host instead reveals a goat, there is no
difference whether he guessed or knew the goat was there.

David

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can a microwave oven have its output imited?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/956ea2dbdf891e16?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 12:13 am
From: mike

William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> Some of the older US made units from Litton or Tappan had
>> a giant reed relay, and the HV was actually switched on and
>> off for the defrost mode. They made a nice sound switching
>> on and off.
>
> I'm curious as to how my GE works.
>
> If, at 50% (say) you were full "on" for one minute, then off for one minute,
> you'd be running in that first minute at a power level that would cause
> localized boiling. (This is a problem with soups and oatmeal.)
>
> I do not see that. Therefore, I have (???) to assume that PWM with a cycle
> of less than one second is used.
>
>
There are a few things you can do.
Use containers with straight vertical sides. The thinnest part of the
material
boils first in a typical bowl. I've been acquiring HUGE ceramic coffee
mugs to cook soup.
The other thing you can do is siphon off the energy with a cup of water.
Varying the amount of water and the power cycling can accommodate most
needs.

In some cases, a microwave browning dish can average the long-duration
PWM of the oven.

I've done some experiments with a dish that looks like a lemon juicer.
The donut shape of the liquid gets energy from all sides and can help
moderate the edge boiling. You'd really not want any thickness of the
subject material to be any thicker than the microwaves can penetrate.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 3:55 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

"mike" <spamme9@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:iqvrjt$tt1$1@dont-email.me...

> There are a few things you can do.
> Use containers with straight vertical sides. The thinnest part
> of the material boils [???] first in a typical bowl. I've been acquiring
> HUGE ceramic coffee mugs to cook soup.

I use huge ceramic cereal bowls. Heating soup or oatmeal at full power still
causes localized boiling.

> The other thing you can do is siphon off the energy with a cup of water.
> Varying the amount of water and the power cycling can accommodate
> most needs.

With my oven, simply lowering the power does the trick. A big bowl of
oatmeal cooks in 6 minutes at 50% power, with no boilover.

> I've done some experiments with a dish that looks like a lemon juicer.
> The donut shape of the liquid gets energy from all sides and can help
> moderate the edge boiling. You'd really not want any thickness of the
> subject material to be any thicker than the microwaves can penetrate.

It seems to me that's exactly what you want.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Recycling electronic waste.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/da679f4848b11be7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 12:18 am
From: "N_Cook"

Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:fUAAp.1422$f95.369@newsfe02.ams2...
> Taking your e-waste to the council tip doesn't allways mean it will be
> recycled in a lawful manner!
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0116gw0/Panorama_Track_My_Trash/
>
>
> Most UK council tips are actually contracted out and the contractor has to
> sell anything anyone will buy to pay for disposal of the WEEE waste and
the
> home & garden waste in the compacter skips.
>
> Budgets are unsurprisingly rather tight and WEEE disposal invariably ends
up
> with the lowest bidder - who most likely exports it to W. Africa.
>
> There is a way you can at least delay your unwanted items entry into the
> scrap system; you can get rid of almost anything on freegle or freecycle,
> although its good form to indicate if an item is not working such as needs
> att'n or spares or repair.
>
> If you want to sell the item there's allways Swapshop.
>
>

I watched that and yet again they failed to mention how this scrap is
reprocessed.
Plastic cases if of one plastic and the right sort can be recycled.
Plastic insulation stripped off if large electical cable , but ribbon cables
etc mechanically stripped for the copper in the UK?
aluminium iron , steel and copper wire yes.
but who processes the pcb boards mechanically/chemically in this country to
extract the solder?as far as I know all the boards get aggregated and sent
in empty containers (dirt cheap as going in the now normal reverse
direction) and burnt in heaps in India mainly.
What happens to all that CRT glass ?
The rest is processed sand and hard plastic

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 5:41 am
From: "Ian Field"

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:cus5t6522j1hbthgh4tu8i6eiurn7duoeg@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 May 2011 21:28:46 +0100, "Ian Field"
> <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Taking your e-waste to the council tip doesn't allways mean it will be
>>recycled in a lawful manner!
>>
>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0116gw0/Panorama_Track_My_Trash/
>>
>>
>>Most UK council tips are actually contracted out and the contractor has to
>>sell anything anyone will buy to pay for disposal of the WEEE waste and
>>the
>>home & garden waste in the compacter skips.
>>
>>Budgets are unsurprisingly rather tight and WEEE disposal invariably ends
>>up
>>with the lowest bidder - who most likely exports it to W. Africa.
>>
>>There is a way you can at least delay your unwanted items entry into the
>>scrap system; you can get rid of almost anything on freegle or freecycle,
>>although its good form to indicate if an item is not working such as needs
>>att'n or spares or repair.
>>
>>If you want to sell the item there's allways Swapshop.
>>
>
> Do you separate your household trash? We have three bins, wheelie
> things, for trash, recycling, and compost. But hazardous materials
> (batteries, chemicals, paint, CF lamps) aren't supposed to go in any
> of those. We save them up and take them to a disposal center.

At the flats we have general refuse bins + glass, paper & cans.

Points of sale have battery bins for the general gadget type batteries, lead
acid have to be taken to the council refuse yard.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 5:44 am
From: "Ian Field"

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:iqvrof$um1$1@dont-email.me...
> Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:fUAAp.1422$f95.369@newsfe02.ams2...
>> Taking your e-waste to the council tip doesn't allways mean it will be
>> recycled in a lawful manner!
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0116gw0/Panorama_Track_My_Trash/
>>
>>
>> Most UK council tips are actually contracted out and the contractor has
>> to
>> sell anything anyone will buy to pay for disposal of the WEEE waste and
> the
>> home & garden waste in the compacter skips.
>>
>> Budgets are unsurprisingly rather tight and WEEE disposal invariably ends
> up
>> with the lowest bidder - who most likely exports it to W. Africa.
>>
>> There is a way you can at least delay your unwanted items entry into the
>> scrap system; you can get rid of almost anything on freegle or freecycle,
>> although its good form to indicate if an item is not working such as
>> needs
>> att'n or spares or repair.
>>
>> If you want to sell the item there's allways Swapshop.
>>
>>
>
> I watched that and yet again they failed to mention how this scrap is
> reprocessed.

No they didn't - they showed an example legitimate recycling firm that
shreds everything and sends the fragments down a conveyor belt for casual
labourers to pick bits out.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: jordan shoe <free shipping paypal payment>(http:// www.airmax-seller.
com/)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b0e44849950618f7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Help with wiring colors on old headphones
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/f8481990f5c47309?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 12:27 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Ian Jackson"
Phil Allison
>>
>>> Is there going to be a prize for suggesting the most obscure (but
>>> effective) way of determining the phasing?
>>
>>
>>** I got one:
>>
>>Insert a pin through a hole in the earphone grille and let it rest loosely
>>the diaphragm.
>>
>>Use the AA cell test.
>>
>>One polarity will evict the pin.
>>
> I reckon that one's certainly for the shortlist for the prize.

** On reflection - it might be better to use a tooth pick.

A pin may well be attracted by the magnet.

> Of course, the principle is not new. You can test loudspeakers with a
> battery, and watch which way the cone kicks. That would be difficult to do
> with headphones, and 'kicking the pin out' overcomes this problem.

** Interesting fact:

Testing a ( moving coil) driver with a battery establishes a polarity that
is the reverse of the "real" one during normal operation.

The *actual cone motion* in response to alternating current drive (within a
driver's operating band) involves a double integration of the current
ave - hence a 180 degree phase shift.

The same fact also means that a cone reproducing a square wave ( within it's
operating band ) follows a motion very close to that when reproducing a sine
wave at the same fundamental frequency. IOW the third and higher order odd
harmonics of the square wave cause very little actual cone motion.

Bet anything this starts an argument.

... Phil

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 3:30 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"John Fields"

** Do you know what " meat plow " refers to ?

.... Phil

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 3:36 am
From: Spehro Pefhany

On Wed, 18 May 2011 20:30:08 +1000, the renowned "Phil Allison"
<phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>
>"John Fields"
>
>
>** Do you know what " meat plow " refers to ?

Something that furrow one's brow?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 3:42 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Spehro Pefhany"
>
>>** Do you know what " meat plow " refers to ?
>
> Something that furrow one's brow?

** Not really.

Look it up.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 3:51 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> ** Interesting fact:

> Testing a ( moving coil) driver with a battery establishes a polarity that
> is the reverse of the "real" one during normal operation.

> The *actual cone motion* in response to alternating current drive (within
> a driver's operating band) involves a double integration of the current
> ave [???] -- hence a 180 degree phase shift.

> The same fact also means that a cone reproducing a square wave (within
it's
> operating band ) follows a motion very close to that when reproducing a
sine
> wave at the same fundamental frequency. IOW the third and higher order odd
> harmonics of the square wave cause very little actual cone motion.

> Bet anything this starts an argument.

There's no argument. As a degreed EE, I'm reasonably certain everything Mr
Clavin here has said is either wrong or a misinterpretation.

The claim of polarity inversion could easily be checked by monitoring the
speaker's output with a mic of known polarity. Or is Cliffy going to claim
that mics, too, have the "wrong" polarity?

There are two likely points of confusion. First, the current flow through an
inductor lags the voltage across the inductor by 90 degrees. (How a "double
integration" occurs is not immediately obvious.) Second, most cone-type
drivers are more resistive than reactive, so you're not going to get 90
degrees, anyway.

Assuming (incorrectly) that the driver were wholly inductive, a double
integration of the current would cause the current to fall at 12dB/8ve.
Assuming the driver is working "constantly velocity", you'd still wind up
with a 6dB/8ve net rolloff. (I think.)

I have no objection to someone saying "Everything you know is wrong!". I do
it all the time. But no one ever gives ME serious consideration, even when
I'm dead right. Cliff, here, should be grateful I treated his claims with a
degree of seriousness. It's far, far more than he deserves.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:08 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:8246t6prgh0lp3fdl8nkmctk31ds7v41r0@4ax.com...

> Why do you want to take a sad song and not make it better?

> Phil's not so bad, he just has zero tolerance for bullshit and
> responds vehemently when he sees it.

> What's wrong with that?

Lots. There's no point or need to "respond vehemently". A simple statement
of the facts is enough.

It doesn't help that Cliffy refuses to admit his own errors.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:36 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"William Sommerwanker is a colossal FUCKWIT"
>
>> Testing a ( moving coil) driver with a battery establishes a polarity
>> that
>> is the reverse of the "real" one during normal operation.
>
>> The *actual cone motion* in response to alternating current drive (within
>> a driver's operating band) involves a double integration of the current
>> wave [???] -- hence a 180 degree phase shift.
>
( snip)

>> Bet anything this starts an argument.
>
> There's no argument. As a degreed EE,

** Shame you are also a 100% autistic metal retard.

> Assuming (incorrectly) that the driver were wholly inductive, a double
> integration of the current would cause the current to fall at 12dB/8ve.

** False assumptions lead to a false conclusions.

The point is entirely about * cone excursion* above resonance as a function
of drive frequency for fixed AC drive voltage. Obviously a cone does not
follow the actual drive voltage wave - or the excursion and all frequencies
would be the same.

Once you work out the simple relationship is between drive frequency and
cone excursion when the cone's mass dominates the game - you have it.

.... Phil

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:48 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> The point is entirely about * cone excursion* above resonance as a
function
> of drive frequency for fixed AC drive voltage. Obviously a cone does not
> follow the actual drive voltage wave - or the excursion and all
frequencies
> would be the same.

> Once you work out the simple relationship is between drive frequency and
> cone excursion when the cone's mass dominates the game - you have it.

How dare you answer a criticism courteously -- what's the world coming to?

I'll check my books on acoustics about this.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:50 am
From: JW

On Wed, 18 May 2011 06:36:19 -0400 Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in Message id:
<e787t6hnjei8k1orc9g7l844ntb5opa3da@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 18 May 2011 20:30:08 +1000, the renowned "Phil Allison"
><phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Fields"
>>
>>
>>** Do you know what " meat plow " refers to ?
>
>Something that furrow one's brow?

A reference to the Stone Temple Pilots. I think.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:53 am
From: John Fields

On Wed, 18 May 2011 20:30:08 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

>
>"John Fields"
>
>
>** Do you know what " meat plow " refers to ?
>
>
>
>
>.... Phil

---
I'd guess a penis.

--
JF

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:57 am
From: John Fields

On Wed, 18 May 2011 04:08:47 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

>"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
>news:8246t6prgh0lp3fdl8nkmctk31ds7v41r0@4ax.com...
>
>> Why do you want to take a sad song and not make it better?
>
>> Phil's not so bad, he just has zero tolerance for bullshit and
>> responds vehemently when he sees it.
>
>> What's wrong with that?
>
>Lots. There's no point or need to "respond vehemently". A simple statement
>of the facts is enough.

---
Different strokes...

Plus, there's always the plonk available.
---

>It doesn't help that Cliffy refuses to admit his own errors.

---
IME, what he does is what many others do here, and that's to admit to
an error by not refuting the poster who catches it.

--
JF

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:57 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"John Fields"
>
>>** Do you know what " meat plow " refers to ?
>
>>.... Phil
>
> ---
> I'd guess a penis.

** Correct.

Hard to imagine a more appropriate " handle " for a usenet troll

- ain't it ?

... Phil

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tektronix 475 sweep triger repair??
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3c588027fdccde25?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 2:40 am
From: JW

On Tue, 17 May 2011 09:25:48 -0400 kgsb@msbx.net wrote in Message id:
<i6s4t6dej0p2v84nm8rff2uo10k32arav5@4ax.com>:

>I have a older TEKTRONIX 475 Oscilloscope that needs repair, the sweep will not trigger either
>channel 1 or 2, it auto sweeps fine. I have checked & re-plugged all connections possible with no
>improvement.. Might anyone have any suggestions as to a potential. reasonable, cheep, repair,
>recalibrating person in the central Michigan area? I have checked with Tektronix repair locations
>in the north east USA but there minim prices are in the high hundreds just to check it out.
>
>*********************************
>Thank you. kGb@msbx.net

You'll find lots of folks who may be able to help you here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 5:58 am
From: KG

On Tue, 17 May 2011 07:43:16 -0700 (PDT), abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On May 17, 9:25 am, k...@msbx.net wrote:
>> I have a older TEKTRONIX 475 Oscilloscope that needs repair, the sweep will not trigger either
>> channel 1 or 2, it auto sweeps fine.  I have checked & re-plugged all connections possible with no
>> improvement..  Might anyone have any suggestions as to a potential. reasonable, cheep, repair,
>> recalibrating person in the central Michigan area?  I have checked with Tektronix repair locations
>> in the north east USA but there minim prices are in the high hundreds just to check it out.
>>
>> *********************************
>> Thank you. k...@msbx.net
>
>If you have repair experience yourself, you may want to search for the
>service manual for the 475. I was able to locate on for my 2445B
>scope. I have seen tehse on Ebay and Craigslist.
>
>Dan

Thank you all for your assistance. I have just joined the Yahoo tektronix group and awaiting
approvial. I'm unsure of the external triger, I will retest to be sure.
*****************
Thank You kgsAT@msbx.net

A true compassionate liberal Anarchist

To reply to this email please remove the AT
after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Zimo DCC info ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/93fbd838f0d4056e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 4:40 am
From: Chris

On 16/05/2011 12:54, manatbandq@hotmail.com wrote:
> On May 16, 2:06 am, Wolf K<weki...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> On 15/05/2011 4:16 PM, manatba...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Wolf wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> he DCC decoders convert rail power (14-18V, 50/60HZ)
>>> If you can't even the basics right about DCC, why bother posting?
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> AIUI, DCC puts a digital signal on top of an AC propulsion current.
>
> No, the "propulsion current" and the digital signal are one and the
> same.
>
>> The
>> latter is rectified to sine wave DC by the decoder,
>
> The DCC track voltage is a square wave digital signal and is rectified
> to DC in the decoder.
>
>> and is in turn
>> chopped to provide average voltages below the maximum, thus controlling
>> the speed of the locomotive. If this is incorrect, please elucidate.
>
> That bit is correct.
>
>> The signal is delivered to the locomotive in the form of data packets,
>> whose format is specified in NMRA Standard S-9.1. This standard also
>> indicates that the propulsion current is AC, Vmax between 14 and 18V RMS.
>
> S-9.1 is the electrical standard. The voltage limits depend on other
> non-DCC scale specific standards.
>
> Basic data packets are defined in S-9.2.
>
>> My recollection of the propulsion current and the signal current
>> relationship is that the former is "ordinary" AC, ie, 50/60Hz,
>
> NO. "AC" does not mean 50 or 60Hz other than in the very limited
> definition of household mains.
>
>> depending
>> on country,
>
> The country is irrelevant.
>
>> and the latter a high frequency, whose value I've probably
>> got wrong, because I wrote from memory. Kindly correct and elucidate my
>> errors.
>
> You've hinted at the NMRA specs, why not read them for yourself?
>
> The system you are describing is more akin to Hornby's Zero One, long
> since deprecated.
>
> MBQ
>
Its not rectified at all its transformed into PWM feed to the motor the
frequency can be varied on some decoders so that they can be tuned to
particular motor types. Works the same way as DC PWM controllers.

--
Chris

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, May 18 2011 6:17 am
From: "manatbandq@hotmail.com"

On May 18, 12:40 pm, Chris <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 16/05/2011 12:54, manatba...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 2:06 am, Wolf K<weki...@sympatico.ca>  wrote:
> >> On 15/05/2011 4:16 PM, manatba...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Wolf wrote:
>
> >> [snip]
>
> >>>> he DCC decoders convert rail power (14-18V, 50/60HZ)
> >>> If you can't even the basics right about DCC, why bother posting?
>
> >> [snip]
>
> >> AIUI, DCC puts a digital signal on top of an AC propulsion current.
>
> > No, the "propulsion current" and the digital signal are one and the
> > same.
>
> >> The
> >> latter is rectified to sine wave DC by the decoder,
>
> > The DCC track voltage is a square wave digital signal and is rectified
> > to DC in the decoder.
>
> >> and is in turn
> >> chopped to provide average voltages below the maximum, thus controlling
> >> the speed of the locomotive. If this is incorrect, please elucidate.
>
> > That bit is correct.
>
> >> The signal is delivered to the locomotive in the form of data packets,
> >> whose format is specified in NMRA Standard S-9.1. This standard also
> >> indicates that the propulsion current is AC, Vmax between 14 and 18V RMS.
>
> > S-9.1 is the electrical standard. The voltage limits depend on other
> > non-DCC scale specific standards.
>
> > Basic data packets are defined in S-9.2.
>
> >> My recollection of the propulsion current and the signal current
> >> relationship is that the former is "ordinary" AC, ie, 50/60Hz,
>
> > NO. "AC" does not mean 50 or 60Hz other than in the very limited
> > definition of household mains.
>
> >> depending
> >> on country,
>
> > The country is irrelevant.
>
> >> and the latter a high frequency, whose value I've probably
> >> got wrong, because I wrote from memory. Kindly correct and elucidate my
> >> errors.
>
> > You've hinted at the NMRA specs, why not read them for yourself?
>
> > The system you are describing is more akin to Hornby's Zero One, long
> > since deprecated.
>
> > MBQ
>
> Its not rectified at all its transformed into PWM feed to the motor the
> frequency can be varied on some decoders so that they can be tuned to
> particular motor types. Works the same way as DC PWM controllers.

<sigh>

The DCC signal is rectified to a DC supply in the decoder. Just look
at a decoder and you'll spot the 4 diodes that form the bridge
rectifier.

The DC supplies the microcontroller and the output H-bridge. The H-
bridge is driven by the uC to generate the PWM signal.

MBQ

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