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| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 13 04:56AM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:26:27 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote: > Also, IIRC, users' manuals for AC's say to wait 3 minutes before trying > to restart. Good news, and odd news. 1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410 1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again! 2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK connection. http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg 3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord. http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg 3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running, the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps. http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg 4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly): http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg 5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps (or very slightly above zero amps). http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg 6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch (and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors). 7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?). http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg 8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer than five minutes). Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after working for only about 10 minutes? Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords? a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig b. One just for the compressor |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 13 01:05AM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm4hm7$47b$1@news.mixmin.net... > Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords? > a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig > b. One just for the compressor Did you remove all the dust from the condenser coil? |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 13 05:13AM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:38:32 -0400, tom wrote: > As others have said you must let it set for about 20 minutes for the > pressure between the high side and the suction side to equalize. Also, if > the kit uses a PTC starter, that also must cool down to room temperature. Here's the sound of the compressor running with the hard-start capacitor hooked up, sinking only about 3 amps through the COMMON terminal: http://tinypic.com/r/2q3p26s/9 Here's the sound of the compressor turning off, after running for about 20 minutes or so, sinking about 11 amps through the COMMON terminal: http://tinypic.com/r/fy1poz/9 |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 13 01:51AM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm4imj$5ru$1@news.mixmin.net... > Here's the sound of the compressor turning off, after running for about 20 > minutes or so, sinking about 11 amps through the COMMON terminal: > http://tinypic.com/r/fy1poz/9 The capacitor on that hard start kit may be too large and cause overheating. Why don't you go ahead and get the correct part specified for the unit you have? For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's important. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 13 06:02AM On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 01:51:55 -0400, tom wrote: > have? > For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's > important. Given that the compressor is clearly working (at least for a short period of time), it seems that I have to go back and figure out what's bad. Seems to make sense to replace the cap, even though 3 tests showed it to be good. I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle? |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 13 06:31AM On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 01:05:03 -0400, tom wrote: > Did you remove all the dust from the condenser coil? Up until now, I was just testing things. So, instead of running the compressor from its own power cord and running the rest of the frig on its own power cord, I just now connected the compressor to the refrigerator main power cord. http://i.cubeupload.com/VdC5eA.jpg Unfortunately, the compressor wouldn't start, so I'll let it cool down for another hour or so (it's VERY hot to the touch right now). It would be interesting if the lack of starting was due to a lack of voltage on the power cord due to "something else" lowering the voltage, but the power cord tested roughly at 120V with the electrical tester. Anyway, I started trying to clean the V-shaped condenser coils. http://i.cubeupload.com/pkIigd.jpg It's amazingly difficult (darn near impossible) to get the brush on the backside of that upside-down V-shaped set of coils. http://i.cubeupload.com/2mSU5V.jpg |
| 90 psig <90@psig.air>: Jul 13 02:01AM -0600 On 07/13/2016 12:31 AM, Danny D. wrote: > It's amazingly difficult (darn near impossible) to get the brush on the > backside of that upside-down V-shaped set of coils. > http://i.cubeupload.com/2mSU5V.jpg Mine are nearly impossible to vacuum as well. So every 2 years I empty the fridges, roll them outside on the deck and give the coils a good 90 psig blow job. |
| whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>: Jul 13 01:12AM -0700 On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 4:19:28 PM UTC-7, Danny D. wrote: > 9. I ran a few continuity tests, which seemed to return what may be > "normal" results: > http://i.cubeupload.com/PmCLK7.jpg No, that's NOT normal; the 'start relay' should be 5 ohms, cold. I think your problem is the start relay. The 'hum' happens when the motor only gets AC on the 'run' winding, and not on the 'start' winding (which is supposed to connect with the 'relay'). The 'overload' clicks off because the nonrotating motor doesn't have enough back-emf. If you replace everything EXCEPT the start relay, and the symptom is exactly the same... There would be gurgle sounds, and the overload would NOT click off, if the start function was happening. |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 13 07:52AM -0400 On 7/13/2016 1:51 AM, tom wrote: > For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's > important. Please realize that Danny D claims to answer all questions, but usually ignores the important questions, even when asked several times. Danny D appears to pick and choose what he sees, and what he does. Even though he says I've helped diagnose a couple of problems for him over the years, he's lost my help on this refrig issue. I can see a couple things that may very well be big problems (and some simple things he can do). But, not until he goes back and answers the questions I've asked two or three times. "for the last time" is a very wise thing to write. I hope you keep your own word, and stop feeding into this guy's analysis pyralysis. If it had been my refrigerator, it would have been fixed and running, long time ago. Danny D doesn't appear to want it fixed, he's just doing break down, analysis, flow charts, web pictures, and videos. Why spend any more time on a guy who's not serious? I'm to the point where I glance at and delete the posts with little attention to what he's playing with. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 13 07:53AM -0400 On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote: > I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to > clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you > really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle? When you go back and answer my question, I'll consider answer yours. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 13 07:56AM -0400 On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote: > Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords? > a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig > b. One just for the compressor If you'd done what I said, and played along, this could have been fixed last week. Hope you are enjoying your self. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 03:46PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3gi7$7re$1@news.mixmin.net... > to last longer than that. > It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the > hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find. https://www.google.com/search?q=hermetic+refrigeration+compressor+pictures&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=646&tbm=isch&imgil=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%253Bdwoy9-wprqoGfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ref-wiki.com%25252Ftechnical-information%25252F145-compressors%25252F31773-hermetic-compressors.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%252Cdwoy9-wprqoGfM%252C_&usg=__v0Z_k8Dk-8wDwTgId9DwnpzWm20%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj0xb2l2O7NAhXJ2SYKHQFCApMQyjcIOQ&ei=-EiFV_TpFMmzmwGBhImYCQ#imgrc=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%3A |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 03:54PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3gi7$7re$1@news.mixmin.net... > to last longer than that. > It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the > hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find. BTW, use the part number on the label of the compressor and do a google search. EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer. BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127 volts. That is why you are seeing a lower reading. BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut and could be separated and cleaned. BTW-4 Good luck. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 07:56PM On 12 Jul 2016 18:02:12 GMT, Nobody Here wrote: > It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part. > But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out on > mine. I hooked 120 VAC to the COMMON (hot) and RUN (neutral) and then jumped, with a screwdriver, the START (neutral) but that didn't start the compressor. I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in series with the RUN, and it didn't start. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 08:02PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:46:59 -0400, tom wrote: > https://www.google.com/search?q=hermetic+refrigeration+compressor+pictures&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=646&tbm=isch&imgil=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%253Bdwoy9-wprqoGfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ref-wiki.com%25252Ftechnical-information%25252F145-compressors%25252F31773-hermetic-compressors.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%252Cdwoy9-wprqoGfM%252C_&usg=__v0Z_k8Dk-8wDwTgId9DwnpzWm20%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj0xb2l2O7NAhXJ2SYKHQFCApMQyjcIOQ&ei=-EiFV_TpFMmzmwGBhImYCQ#imgrc=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%3A Wow. That thing is jam packed! http://www.ref-wiki.com/img_article/compressor.jpg It almost makes me want to cut it open and look to see what went wrong! http://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user_data/images/compressor_knowledge/hermetic_compressors/secop_hermetic_compressor_glass_2.jpg There seem like plenty of mechanical parts to go bad: http://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user_data/images/compressor_knowledge/hermetic_compressors/secop_hermetic_compressor_glass_1.jpg Thanks! |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 04:04PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3i1e$aas$1@news.mixmin.net... > I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in > series > with the RUN, and it didn't start. I would connect Neutral to the Common and Line to the Run. Connect the Run capacitor from Run to Start. Apply power and momentary short the capacitor. See if that does anything. You might give the can a few good wacks with a hammer in case it is just something jammed in the pump. Do you know anyone that does automotive AC work? They would have most of what is needed to change out the compressor sans a good torch and sil-fos brazing rod. Or wait for a good appliance sale. |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 12 04:11PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 3:54 PM, tom wrote: ... > BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would > pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut > and could be separated and cleaned. ... I agree about the cap. The parts guy test could have been it's not shorted & it's not open. That leaves a bad value. E.g., a too small capacitance that doesn't provide enough start current. But I guess that you could test that by measuring the current through the start winding, using your test rig with cap. The relay is pretty much eliminated as the problem through using your test rig. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 08:21PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:54:44 -0400, tom wrote: > EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer. > BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127 volts. > That is why you are seeing a lower reading. Thanks for explaining why I'm only seeing 12 Amps when the compressor won't start when the Locked Rotor Amperage (LRA) spec is 17.6 Amps. http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg I generally try to "diagnose" parts before giving up on them. It's just so much easier (mentally) to replace stuff that I *know* for a fact is bad, then to replace stuff that I "think" is bad. I'm sure it is far easier, mentally, for the type of people who "throw parts at the problem" to replace things that they haven't completely tested. > BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would > pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut > and could be separated and cleaned. While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying, which is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter, essentially throwing parts at the problem. Or, similarly, I can pay a bit over $100 to have a tech come out and tell me, for sure, what needs fixing. Most of the time, when those are my options, I generally opt to buy the tools for $100, where the tool either fixes the problem or the tool tells me exactly what that problem is. But, in this case, I don't think there is that $100 tool option, is there? |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 05:26PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3jg9$d0q$1@news.mixmin.net... > tools for $100, where the tool either fixes the problem or the tool tells > me exactly what that problem is. > But, in this case, I don't think there is that $100 tool option, is there? Apart from this problem, a good Fluke DMM would be on my immediate acquire list. And never loan it out if you want to be able to trust it. There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth looking at. Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? From different angles? |
| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Jul 12 05:23PM -0500 Danny D. wrote: > While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying, > which is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter, > essentially throwing parts at the problem. You should be able to get a replacement start cap for MUCH less than $100, and just bypass the starting relay. You will hear instantly if the compressor starts. If it does, the compressor is OK, and the only piece left is the relay. Some time ago I got a run cap from a refrigeration supply for $6. I expected it to be more. And, if the compressor does not start with the new cap and the relay bypassed, then you can be fairly sure the compressor cannot be salvaged. Jon |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 12 06:33PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote: >> piston. > I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the > compressor. Pump out all the refrigerant. Saw the top off the compressor. After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld. Replace the refrigerant. No problem for you, right? -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 12 06:35PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote: > There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth > looking at. Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago, and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored my hints and reminders. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| Amanda Ripanykhazov <dmanzaluni@gmail.com>: Jul 13 05:49AM -0700 I have been having severe problems with 12v halogen "spot"lights. My Satco strip seems to blow its individual internal mini-transformers behind the bulb about every other time the bulb blows. I also have an Ikea fitting supporting three 12v halogen bulbs on which the bulbs dont blow as often but the whole supporting transformer seems to blow every few years. Much perceived wisdom online seems to date back a few years to the dawn of LED bulbs, when specs (heat? heat dissipation? colour temperature? lumens? current used? etc) were all over the place and I am wondering whether these have settled down yet so that I can just replace the halogens with LED bulbs using similar (or internally adjusted) current? Or does that still entail only buying the most expensive, - eg Philips, - bulbs? Or if the current or heat draw which causes the el-cheapo transformer in the track lighting units and the Ikea unit to blow is substantially less for LED bulbs, can I render those transformers MORE reliable by putting LEDs in and adding (say) one or two bulbs to the Ikea unit to compensate for the lower current draw? |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jul 12 11:07PM -0700 Jeff Liebermann wrote: > >** The dark coating that forms on silver is *silver sulphate* (aka Ag2S). > I stand half way corrected. Y'er right. Most of the tarnish is > silver sulphide. ** There is simply no silver oxide formed at room temp. > >must become conductive under enough voltage. > What do you mean "must become conductive"? Do you mean that the oleic > acid becomes conductive, or perhaps the contact cleaner? ** I was referring to products that use oleic or any other acid in the mix. Even the smallest leakage current can be a disaster with electronics - track to track on PBCs or between plate and grid pins of a vacuum tube or its socket. Products like WD40 are certain to cause no leakage. .... Phil |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Jul 13 02:10AM -0700 >"** There is simply no silver oxide formed at room temp. " Unless you got some qualifiers for that statement, it is not true. If true, what is that shit on my silver candy bowl ? >"Even the smallest leakage current can be a disaster with >electronics - track to track on PBCs or between plate and grid pins >of a vacuum tube or its socket. " I would still not use anything that is not residue free on a tube socket. Either that or clean it off with solvent(s) that are residue free and make sure the residue is gone. Actually, it seems to usually be the tube pins causing the problem more than the socket. >"Products like WD40 are certain to cause no leakage. " Unless it is sealed it is still a good idea to wash it down. There can be conductive stuff in the dust in the air and it can stick to the oil residue. So maybe the oil is not conductive but the resulting goop is. It really does depend on what you're cleaning. And cleaning high voltage pots is clearly contraindicated. Like the focus and screen controls on a TV, or similar ones going to the CRT in a CRO. However they very rarely need it. And what most people do not realize is that in a pot, usually you are not cleaning the carbon element, you are cleaning the contact for the wiper. Talking about stuff becoming conductive, in my bigscreen TV days there used to be coolant leaks. It would leak but it was not conductive - YET. After electrical potential is applied for a time the shit became not only conductive but corrosive. Many nightmares over that. Soaks into the board and screws that all up, eats the copper and the pins off of components. And nobody knows until the failure happens. And if it leaks onto SMPS, HV or line output section it can cause a fire, so manufacturers started installing gutters. And let's not go too much into when lytics leak all over the board. I have had to run some through many cycles to get them clean. And it doesn't take high voltage to make a problem. Last year I worked on a fairly expensive Roland drum machine. the output OP AMP was misbiased at the input and I could not figure out why. Well later I find the board with the output level control had been doused by some sort of contact cleaner, there was residue all over it. I cleaned that fucker many many times and it didn't work. I had to modify the thing to tolerate the leakage ! Actually a 47K resistor to ground did the trick. Whenever I go to a shop and they give me a can of cleaner I spray it on a paper towel. I want to see it COMPLETELY dry. Pure TF, though not the best cleaner, you could be sure there is nothing left of it and fast. But that is pretty much a form of Freon and you can't get it in the US anymore, except maybe in the military or under some special license. I got some Freon 12, maybe ten pounds of it and if I sell it that's like $100 a pound and I want to first see the car it goes into hold a nitrogen charge for a week at least. |
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