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| Bill Vanek <bilvanek2@invalid.com>: Dec 10 03:00PM -0800 On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:37:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon >the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the car is the >same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination is!), then how the heck >can total toe be specified in degrees? I replied to your original question days ago, and you ignored that reply. Regardless of that, your questions have been answered repeatedly. Toe *is* an angle, but if you know the outside diameter of the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a triangle, which is really basic math. This is my original reply: Inches depends on the outside diameter of the tire: https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm Minutes to degrees can be found here: http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/trigonometryRealms/degMinSec/degMinSec.htm Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause any meaningful tire wear. Toe is much more critical, including for overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout, and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home. The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. Toe is much more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's exactly right. You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite. There is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying to save money is not such a good idea. At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there. If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear purposes, pay someone. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 10 11:33PM nospam actually said: > only because you're too stupid to figure out how, particularly after > people repeatedly explain to you exactly how. nospam, Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel? You don't know the answer to *any* question asked in this thread. Not one. Yet, nospam, you pollute the thread nonetheless. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 12:08AM Andy Burns actually said: > inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be > high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a > joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby. Thank you Andy for staying on topic and helping to increase the tribal knowledge here with respect to the accuracy that a smartphone has for measuring angles. Apparently a smartphone accelerometer is used for measuring angles, which fits a camber measurement application, but for the life of me, I don't see how a smarphone accelerometer can fit a toe-angle application. Can you? > The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6 > minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for > other angles, so even they would be marginal. Thanks for explaining that the accuracy of the MEMS inclinometer in digital levels is six to twelve minutes. This Home Depot blurb says a common 10-inch Husky is "Accurate to 1/10 of a degree", which is in the range you stated. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357 |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 12:08AM amdx actually said: > If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point > up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the > front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe. I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about what they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your sugestions. It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers, so, while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or minus six minutes. However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that), would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where gravity isn't different for various angles of toe. However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements! So is the centerline of the car. So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this: a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall. b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects. c. That's the triangle! https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive. > http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg > has the sears level shown here, > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in-digital-lasertrac-reg-level/p-00948292000P?sid=BVReview That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels. > That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see > a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a > simple trig problem. I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the straight line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where they intersect will be the triangle we need to measure. http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark. > The hard part, finding the centerline of your car. > I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you > understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches. The trig is easy. soh cah toa. What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe": https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is how on earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel! I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 12:08AM tlvp actually said: > Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always > spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column > of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either :-) . I think you (yet again) completely missed the point. The math for single-wheel toe is trivial which even you seem to understand. https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif However, I said I was confused about total toe. The toe in the front of a wheel/tire combination is the same in degrees as the toe at the rear of that same wheel/tire combination (and, in fact, no matter what size the wheel/tire combaination, the toe is the same degrees of angle). Yet, total toe is merely the difference in toe from the rear of the wheel/tire to the front. And total toe is specified in degrees. https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 12:08AM Scott Dorsey actually said: > Yes, you need to change your brake fluid Hi Scott, In the case of the brake fluid, most of us use the ATE super racing blue stuff (even though blue is not an official DOT color) and then the "amber" ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber. However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is hygroscopic, The bimmer has 6 brake hoses though, two of which fray because they're too close to the exhaust manifold on the I6 (just behind the ABS control module, which is also too close to the exhaust manifold, even with the heat sheild that BMW added), so *they* have to be periodically replaced. Again, I do appreciate that you are one of the very (very) few people on this newsgroup who know what you're talking about. Many of the others (e.g., nospam, Tekkie, Jeorg, etc.) are clueless fools who wouldn't know a bimmer from a beemer if it hit them. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 10 11:33PM Tekkie? actually said: > The BMW sounds like a great value... Have you considered having it bronzed? Tekkie, Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel? You don't know the answer to *any* question asked. Not one. Yet, you pollute the thread nonetheless. |
| Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net>: Dec 10 06:57PM -0600 On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 00:08:52 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon >ATE DOT4 where we alternate from non-DOT blue to DOT-amber. >However, this is normal maintenance for any car, since brake fluid is >hygroscopic, I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership. So it's not "normal" to me. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 01:07AM Bill Vanek actually said: > the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear > measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a > triangle, which is really basic math. I had/have no problem with the trigonometry, since it's simple soh cah toa stuff, these triangles. My main problem is where was the triangle. It seems to me that, if toe is specified in inches, then the triangle should be specified at some known point off from the center of the wheel to the centerline of the car. If they specify toe at any other point than a known point off from the center of the wheel, then they have to specify how far they are from that known point for any inches-to-degrees conversion to apply. Isn't that right? > Inches depends on the outside diameter of the tire: > https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm I completely understand that measuring inches from the tire tread to the centerline of the car and then using that as the "opposite" in the trigonometric soh cah toa, will come up with the wrong angle which will be more and more wrong the further the measurement is taken from the center point of the wheel. When they specify toe in inches, why don't they just specify it from the rim of the wheel (instead of from the tread of the tires?) > Minutes to degrees can be found here: > http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/trigonometryRealms/degMinSec/degMinSec.htm I can convert with basic sohcahtoa trig but I need to visualize the triangles first. > Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are > trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause > any meaningful tire wear. I have learned a lot about this accuracy problem since I opened this thread, which I can summarize as no basic home tool will get the accuracy specified by BMW (which is 1 minute for camber). However, you really don't *need* that accuracy (which is what you are saying). An inclinometer will get us to about 1/10th of a degree (six minutes) of accuracy as stated on thisadvertising blurb: http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in-digital-lasertrac-reg-level/p-00948292000P A typical smartphone apparently uses either a gyro or a magnetic compass and accelerometer, which can't get to the same accuracy (it seems) as an inclinometer can (or so I'm told). However, in the end, a "smidge" of negative camber (about a degree or so) is probably in the accuracy range we really need, which a smartphone can do. > Toe is much more critical, including for > overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout, > and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home. Static toe is actually easier to measure and harder to measure than camber, it seems. It's easier because it's easy to measure distances and then convert those distances to degrees using basic sohcahtoa trig. It's harder because you can't easily measure degrees of toe with a typical inclinometer level or smartphone gyro/compass/accelerometer because they're based on gravity which is in a different plane for measuring camber angles as it is for measuring toe angles. > The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the > tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can > be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. BMW does not recommend ever rotating tires, but they don't care about tire wear. The camber is only adjustable in the rear and it's pretty high (I forget but it's at least 2 degrees negative camber for each rear wheel). That wears out the inner edge like you can't believe. Me? I'm ok with zero camber but that can't be obtained (the last alignment proved that). But I think 1.5 or 1 degrees was what the guy was able to get me. So, for me, the camber setting would be to simply put it at the lowest it will go (least negative) for the bimmer but for the toyota I have a wider range (where only the front camber can be set because the toyota has a solid rear axle so nothing is settable). As for wear, it seem everything goes in this direction: 1. caster 2. camber 3. toe In that caster is done first, then camber, and then toe, and in that wear is least with caster and then more with camber and then even more with toe (under typical settings). It's just x y z planar stuff. :) > more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do > it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's > exactly right. I have done my toe when I replaced tierod ends, pitman arms, and idler arms, and then when I took the cars for alignment, the toe was spot on. So I think toe is easy, compared to caster and camber. > You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will > increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite. I'm an old man who has never had a FWD car and I hope that I die before I ever stoop that low. So all my questions are for RWD vehicles. > is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied > readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying > to save money is not such a good idea. The simple test is to set the alignment at home, and then take it to the shop for double checking. Many shops offer free tests if nothing needs to be changed; but I would hesitate to take them up on that only because they can always find something so I suspect that's just a gimmick. Has anyone here ever gotten the "free test" actually for free if there was nothing to change? Or do they always find "something"? > At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a > challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there. Never in my life (and I'm an old man) have I seen a mechanic install a tire correctly (I use Tire Rack authorized installers), so I suspect it's the same with alignment. For example, I had to bring 500 pounds of my own weights to my last alignment. The alignment guy *knew* how to do it right, he just knew that most of this customers don't have a clue. It's the same with the tire mounting shops. They *know* how to do it right, but they also know most of their customers don't have a clue so they get lazy. I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.). > be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are > trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear > purposes, pay someone. I think the summary is this simple. A. Check the alignment at home for the things that can be adjusted. For my Toyota, that's only caster, camber, and toe in the front, and for my bimmer, that's only camber and toe on the rear and toe on the front. B. Adjust if necessary (using a smart phone or inclinometer for camber, and a tape measure for toe). I'm not sure how to do caster in the toyota since I only just found out that the caster is adjustable on the toyota. C. Take it to one of those "free if it's ok" shops, and see what they get for measurements. If I'm perfect, it's free (I assume); if it needs adjusting, then I learn what can and can't be done. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 01:07AM Bill Vanek actually said: > That is not at all what total toe means. If I misunderstand what "total toe" means, then that is probably the root of my confusion that toe at the front of the wheel is the same angle as toe at the back of the wheel, yet total toe is specified in angles and (I thought) that total toe is the difference in toe from the back to the front. > 0 degrees of toe for a wheel > is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car > (that is a simplification, but it's usable here). I don't understand why that is a *simplification* because it seems to be true by definition that if the wheel/tire angle to the centerline of the car is zero, then there is zero static toe. Dynamic toe might be difference because a suspension uses complex geometry. > Toe is a measure of > the variance in degrees from straight ahead. Yup. Toe is the angle difference that the wheel/tire is pointing versus where the centerline of the car is pointing. > Total toe is merely the > sum of the toe in degrees of both the left and right sides. Ah. If *that* is "total toe" then that's a completely different story! If "total toe" is simply the toe at the front driver's wheel plus the toe at the front passenger-side wheel, then that is trivial to understand. But that's not what others said "total toe" was. But, you must be right because if total toe was what others said it was (which is the difference in toe from the back and front of any one wheel), then it can't possibly be specified in degrees. So what you explain is "total toe" makes far more sense than what others explained as total toe. > So if the > left is +2 degrees, and the right is -2 degrees, the total toe is 0 > degrees. That makes sense if we use a definition of total toe which adds up the toe of each tire on the axle instead of calculating the difference of toe between the front and back of any one wheel on the axle. So probably I was misled by someone's (I forget who) explanation that total toe was the difference in measured toe from the back of the wheel to centerline and the front of that same wheel to centerline. > That means minimum tire wear (theoretically), but the > steering wheel will be a bit off-center. The steering wheel is (mostly) unrelated to alignment but I know what you mean when you say that. I also know that you were using theoretical numbers which make sense. In the real world, the toe is generally similar (if not the same) between two wheels on the axle (such as 1/32nd of an inch for each wheel, for a "total toe" using your definition of total toe, of 1/16th of an inch). > The difference between the front and back of the tires is used only > for distance measure, not angles. That statement makes sense because the angle at the front of the tire with respect to centerline is the same as the angle at the back of the tire with respect to centerline - which is why they put individual toe in angles - because angles are independent of wheel/tire size. In summary, I was misled by someone's definition of total toe being the difference in distance between the front and back of a tire to centerline. If total toe is defined as the combined toe of both wheels on the axle, then total toe can easily be defined in either inches or in angles. Now it makes sense. Thanks! |
| AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>: Dec 10 07:20PM -0600 On 12/10/2016 6:57 PM, Vic Smith wrote: >> hygroscopic, > I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership. > So it's not "normal" to me. None of my cars have dual-diagonal lines so I purge the brake fluid annually on each of them. A burst rusted brake line can be a memorable experience- it sure was for me. OTOH I wouldn't tell anyone else how to maintain their vehicles, YMMV. -- Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
| Bill Vanek <bilvanek2@invalid.com>: Dec 10 05:59PM -0800 On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon >I don't understand why that is a *simplification* because it seems to be >true by definition that if the wheel/tire angle to the centerline of the >car is zero, then there is zero static toe. Toe is actually the angle to the thrust angle, but if the thrust angle is not aligned with the center line, there is something wrong with the geometry of the car. It's easier for this discussion to just simplify it. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 02:16AM John Harmon actually said: > However, if you have ever attempted to check your camber at home using a > smart phone angle measuring tool, your insight, hints, and advice would be > greatly appreciated (and would be generally useful to many people). Maybe the SCIENCE guys can help in interpreting these specs? http://www.st.com/en/mems-and-sensors/l3gd20h.html One thing I've found out that is new is that the angle measurement on many mobile devices (e.g., iPads and iPhones) is the off-the-shelf ST Microelectronics L3G4200D (apparently rebranded the STMicroelectronics AGD1 2022 FP6AQ for Apple products). http://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/110992/iphone-4-gyroscope-x-rayed-likely-to-be-added-to-future-ipad Do you know if Android devices also have that same gyro? If so, that MEMS chip will be the ticket to us figuring out the angle accuracy. On the ST web site, they list the "resolution" as "lower than 0.01 dps/yHz for zero-rate level", which I'm not sure how to translate into degrees of accuracy. http://www.st.com/en/mems-and-sensors/gyroscopes.html?querycriteria=productId=SC1288 Another spec they use for the L3GD20H MEMS gyro is: plus or minus 2000/ plus or minus 245 full scale typ (degrees/s) Do you SCIENCE guys know how to interpret those specs so that we can get an idea of the resolution of the chip in terms of degrees of accuracy? Do the Android guys know if that chip is also in Android devices? |
| Bill Vanek <bilvanek2@invalid.com>: Dec 10 06:20PM -0800 On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon >However, in the end, a "smidge" of negative camber (about a degree or so) >is probably in the accuracy range we really need, which a smartphone can >do. The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for handling purposes. >> tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can >> be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. >BMW does not recommend ever rotating tires, That's not uncommon. >wear. The camber is only adjustable in the rear and it's pretty high (I >forget but it's at least 2 degrees negative camber for each rear wheel). >That wears out the inner edge like you can't believe. That doesn't sound right. 2 degrees should not cause early wear, so you really need to check the ride height. And recheck the camber. > 1. caster > 2. camber > 3. toe Yes, caster will not cause wear. >In that caster is done first, then camber, and then toe, and in that wear >is least with caster and then more with camber and then even more with toe >(under typical settings). That's not the reason for the order, but it's not important. >I have done my toe when I replaced tierod ends, pitman arms, and idler >arms, and then when I took the cars for alignment, the toe was spot on. >So I think toe is easy, compared to caster and camber. I hate to say this, but you can get pretty close just eyeballing toe and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too. >> to save money is not such a good idea. >The simple test is to set the alignment at home, and then take it to the >shop for double checking. It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do that, you might have gotten lucky. >can always find something so I suspect that's just a gimmick. >Has anyone here ever gotten the "free test" actually for free if there was >nothing to change? Or do they always find "something"? They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because cars do go out of alignment. >For example, I had to bring 500 pounds of my own weights to my last >alignment. The alignment guy *knew* how to do it right, he just knew that >most of this customers don't have a clue. I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average occupant weights. >lazy. >I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car >taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.). And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference. >for measurements. >If I'm perfect, it's free (I assume); if it needs adjusting, then I learn >what can and can't be done. You don't really learn that, except for each time you try it. You can get very different results on future attempts. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 03:33AM Bill Vanek actually said: > is not aligned with the center line, there is something wrong with the > geometry of the car. It's easier for this discussion to just simplify > it. Oh. OK. You actually understand this stuff. Thanks for explaining that the thrust angle isn't necessarily the centerline, but, for our purposes, we'll assume they're one and the same. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 03:33AM Vic Smith actually said: > I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership. > So it's not "normal" to me. We're delving off topic, but if you live in a wet or dusty clime, your brake fluid will "suck up" water and dust, which, on a 10-mile long mountain pass, might make a difference in not so good a way. Even if it doesn't, the alcohol in the fluid will slowly erode your gaskets in your master cylinder (and slave cylinder if you have a hydraulic clutch). It will likely still work all dusty, wet, and black; but it won't work as well if you live in the mountains. |
| kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Dec 10 10:45PM -0500 >I'm extremely familiar with the BMW, but only you and I seem to know what >we're talking about here. What I am talking about is mostly that maintenance and repairs are different, and there are vehicles that require a lot of maintenance and if you don't do that maintenance you get repairs. Maintenance you can do at your convenience in a heated or air-conditioned garage. Repairs are not so clean. The Japanese cars... you don't do a lot of maintenance, instead you do a lot of repairs all at once. The BMW, you do a lot of maintenance. >familiar with the DISA valve engineering flaws and have long ago replaced >the innards with re-engineered ones from Gary at German Engineering >(replace the plastic pin with titanium). I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping adhesive for a while until after a while you can't. >> There's an aftermarket retrofit for this also. >There are *tons* of aftermarket FSUs, but I'm not aware of any design >change to any other component than the FSU itself. The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat of course. In Germany it's not a problem, but in Florida it fails pretty promptly. There are a couple places that have retrofit ones with big heatsinks. There have been a couple people talking about making PWM retrofits but nobody has done it yet that I know. >the CCV dumps cold oil into the dipstick tube, which hardens with contact >with water vapor into the extremely badly designed teeny tiny >concentric-circle space in the two-tubed dipstick. If you are changing oil every 3,000 miles you shouldn't need to do any of this. Just swab it out when you cahnge. >varnish on the outside that cracks. It's a warranty repair and I had all my >wood trim replaced under warranty, but the replacement wood trim cracked >just the same. Tried Formby's Furniture Refinisher or maybe just xylene on it to liquify the varnish and redistribute it? >It's a manufacturing and design flaw that they all have. This might be the same issue as the fan controller and the exterior rubber: stuff that works just fine in the German climate but doesn't do so well in places in the US. >I have done an overhaul of the rubber from buna to viton long ago, and the >worst were the SAP/SAS valves in the back of the intake manifold. They're >impossible to get to under the best of circumstances. If you keep changing the fluid, the rack seals don't fail. If you don't change the fluid, the rack seals will fail. Changing to viton isn't a bad idea at all, but constant maintenance reduces the need to do that. >re-engineer them. My point is that most of these known problems span >models, so, BMW *knows* that they build crappy components but they don't >fix them. So that's just bad engineering on BMW's part. I would tend to disagree, with a few exceptions like the cooling system which really IS shameful. >mixed up and moved about (like crud). The second is that it's actually not >trivial to change the transmission fluid because of the specific >temperature requirements (which most people skip). Okay, I was making the assumption of the manual transmission. Why would anyone get a BMW and then put a slushbox in it? If you DO have a slushbox, regular fluid changes are even MORE important although not at as short intervals, because if you don't do it regularly while the transmission is young, you're going to get exactly into that situation when the transmission is old. (Note also that a fluid change is NOT the same as a complete flush.... the complete flush is a bad idea in any case... just drain what comes out and refill it. It won't change all the fluid in the case but that's okay because you're going to do it again soon enough anyway). Agreed that if you're stuck with a high mileage automatic that has been abused in its youth by a lack of proper fluid changes that the best thing to do is just keep your fingers crossed and hope it doesn't fail. (Well, really the best thing to do is trade in the car before it does fail but that's another story). This is a case of repairs vs. maintenance again. >BTW, are you the "Magnum" "Scott" of BMW fame? >If so, we actually know each other and we have common friends who have both >beemers and bimmers. Nope, I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs for the reason that if you do put the proper maintenance into them you can just keep driving and driving them. I just rolled over 360,000 mile on the E28 this week coming home from work and it's still almost new. >Either way, it's a *pleasure* to speak with someone who is not only >intelligent, but who knows what he's talking about (which most of the fools >in this thread don't). I don't claim to be intelligent, I just claim to be able to keep cars running. A good argument could be made that if I were intelligent I would have traded the E28 in twenty years ago and I wouldn't be driving the 2002 at all. Certainly my wife makes that argument often. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
| kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Dec 10 10:48PM -0500 >I've never changed brake fluid in 50 years of car/truck ownership. >So it's not "normal" to me. And... on a Japanese car you can get away with that and not have any issues. Some of them don't even list the brake fluid on the maintenance schedule. Unfortunately you _cannot_ get away with that on the BMW. It is NOT forgiving about maintenance. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 03:57AM Bill Vanek actually said: > The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other > specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for > handling purposes. I just looked that up for my two cars. The Toyota spec for the front camber is -.6? to .9? which is exactly in the range you suggested. The BMW rear camber E39 I6 and 540 models with "standard," "low slung sport" and "M-sport" suspensions spec is apparently -2 deg 10 minutes. The tolerance varies among options: either +/- 20 minutes or +/- 25 minutes of angle. The M5 spec is -1 deg 50 minutes perhaps due to 275/35 section width tires vs 225/55 for I6 cars. > and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial > lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire > wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too. For the caster on the toyota of 1.7 to 3.2 degrees, I am not yet sure how to measure it for the Toyota but I won't have to bother for the bimmer because caster isn't adjustable. For the camber of -.6 to .9 degrees for the Toyota, I think I'll use a magnetic base inclinometer such as the Husky 10-inch Home Depot electronic level. I think I'll just set the toe to 1/16th of an inch less in the front tread (measured as close to centerline of the wheel as possible) than in the back tread to centerline of the vehicle. That will give me a total toe of 1/8th inch on the Toyota. I'll use toe plates and a tape measure, I think. > It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do > that, you might have gotten lucky. True. But it would be free if I got lucky! :) > They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort > to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because > cars do go out of alignment. But if I align it first, it should be within spec, at least for what can be aligned, which is, for the toyota, front caster, camber, and toe, and for the bimmer, rear caster and toe and front toe. > I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a > car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average > occupant weights. The 500 pound loading on a bimmer is for a different purpose. You are supposed to put 100 pounds on the driver seat, 100 pounds on the passenger front seat, and 200 pounds evenly spaced on the rear bench and 100 pounds in the trunk. That artificially "lowers" the car to a specific "ride height" which all BMW alignment specs are to. There is much discussion of why BMW uses that artificial ride height to normalize all their specs, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the "typical" loading of a vehicle with a driver. >>I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car >>taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.). > And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference. I mostly agree with you that when the tire shop torques *all* lug nuts and bolts to the same 100 foot pounds, it probably doesn't hurt anything. Nor if they fill up all tires to the same 40 psi, again, it won't kill anyone (even though BMW specifies different pressure for the front versus the rear). That they pry off the BBS hubcaps with a screwdriver just breaks the plastic tabs. And that they don't remove all the old weights just makes them put more on each time (and increases the chances of an imbalance from a lost weight). And that they don't mount the tire with the red or yellow dots to the valve stem or match mounting mark just means they'll use more weight than necessary. That they don't even torque the bolts in a star pattern probably only makes the wheel slightly crooked. So, I agree with you that the fact that no tire is ever mounted correctly isn't causing accidents left and right. But it's still wrong. |
| John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 11 04:13AM Scott Dorsey actually said: > sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car > starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping > adhesive for a while until after a while you can't. Oh, yeah. I know it all too well. My first smoke test for a lean condition showed a crack on the *underside* of that large ribbed tube. A few years later, my second smoke test showed that the tubes sticking out had leaks. It would have been cheaper to just replace the damn things, instead of doing all those expensive smoke tests, which was your point, I agree! > The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear > regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat > of course. Maybe you can answer a question which has irked me for years. As you know, the AC/Heating system is "fully automatic" meaning it's not intended for manual control, so, the blower starts at whatever settting it wants to start at when you start the car, no matter what setting you left it at when you last shut down the car. I *always* adjust that, either to *off* or to the midway position. But what I always wondered was, if the blower is on at all, whether the full on, or midway position caused less stress on the FSU? I'm guessing from something a guy named cn90 and jim cash wrote that I found by googling, that the midway position is least stressful for that TO220 FET (there are three of those MOSFETs aren't there?). Which blower position do you think is least stressful on that MOSFET driver if the blower is on? 1 bar 5 bars 10 bars > promptly. There are a couple places that have retrofit ones with big > heatsinks. There have been a couple people talking about making PWM retrofits > but nobody has done it yet that I know. I know when my FSU failed the first time, it was so hot I burned my hand trying to get it out of those Germanic clips. The second one failed without heat, as did the others (where they failed in a way that gave the AC/heater controls a mind of their own). > Tried Formby's Furniture Refinisher or maybe just xylene on it to liquify > the varnish and redistribute it? Nope. I didn't know about that trick. Maybe I'll try since it's just the varnish that is cracked. > I would tend to disagree, with a few exceptions like the cooling system > which really IS shameful. The ABS "trifecta" failing on the E38, E39, and E46 is also shameful. So is the trunk wiring loom fraying on almost every vehicle. And the headlight adjusters crumbling on some of the models like mine. > I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs Thanks for your insight. Very interesting! |
| Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net>: Dec 11 03:18AM -0600 >line can be a memorable experience- it sure was for me. OTOH >I wouldn't tell anyone else how to maintain their vehicles, >YMMV. I've had 3 brake line failures. All rear wheel and all on cars that had +20 years driving in salt. Had one a few months ago. They've all been on my "emergency" cars. I was very close to home every time, and I always have a working e-brake. In every instance the lines were heavily corroded salt corroded. The only maintenance I could have done to prevent it was to replace the lines, which I should have done. |
| Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Dec 11 10:44AM -0500 On 12/11/2016 4:18 AM, Vic Smith wrote: > In every instance the lines were heavily corroded salt corroded. > The only maintenance I could have done to prevent it was to replace > the lines, which I should have done. Just anecdotal evidence, but brake line replacement seems to be much more common in the past 15 or so years. I had the lines of my 5 year old Buick corrode. I know others that had to replace them on 5 to 8 year old cars. Either new snow removal materials are being used or the lines are thinner, or both. This suppoerts it http://www.wfsb.com/story/23874231/mechanics-blame-winter-road-treatment-for-damage-to-cars Connecticut auto mechanics told the I-Team they are concerned over a recent rash of rust and they blamed the need for so many rust-related repairs on the way cities and towns in the state treat the roads during winter storms. The I-Team heard it at the Vernon Collision Center where they said, "everything just seems to rust. Five or six years ago, we didn't do nearly as many brake lines as we're doing now." It was the same story at the Canton Gulf, where the I-Team heard, "I've been here 35 years and in the last three or four years we've done more brake lines than I have in the first 30 years." |
| AIOEUSER <AIOEUSER@AIOEUSER.com>: Dec 10 03:48PM -0800 Probably a drain hole clog since there is NO water connected to the ice maker although I do put ice from another source into the ice maker just so it can dispense it. The dispenser works OK. |
| Pat <pat@nospam.us>: Dec 11 07:36AM -0500 On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:17:32 -0800, AIOEUSER <AIOEUSER@AIOEUSER.com> wrote: >temperatures are correct. >Please tell me where to look and what I can do. >TIA My daughter has an IKEA branded Whirlpool refridgerator that leaked water on the floor every time it went through a defrost cycle. As others said, the drain hole was plugged up so the water would leak into the freezer instead of going to the drain pan. |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Dec 10 10:12PM -0800 frank wrote: > Phil Allison > > ** A sustained overload, high ambient temp or both will cause that. > Isn't the overload likely to blow the main AC fuse? ** Supply fuses in most audio amplifiers are normally sized to allow the power transformer to operate well beyond its long term capacity - so it can do so in the short term. As a consequence, they do not protect the transformer from overheating. That is what a fitting thermal device is for. The AC fuse will open under various fault conditions that cause enough current. .... Phil |
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