- Does this device exist? - 13 Updates
- Help me to identify a transformer. - 3 Updates
- Here's the deal on that water heater - 2 Updates
| Ralph Phillips <ralphp@philent.biz>: Oct 01 01:28PM -0500 > when the dishwasher is running. In my brother's house dishes are > washed more by hand than by dishwasher but bioth get used. > Eric *blink* Simple. Don't hand wash dishes if the dishwasher is going. I don't see the problem or the need to automate something that can be handled by the grey matter between the ears. RwP |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Oct 01 12:20PM -0700 On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:47:32 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com" >You are over-complicating a rather simple problem. >Peter Wieck >Melrose Park, PA Actually, I'm not. They tried a small instant hot heater. It did not provide enough hot water. They saw the small water heater I use in my shop and they think it is perfect. It just draws too much current to be used at the same time a dishwasher is heating. Eric |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Oct 01 12:23PM -0700 On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:49:46 -0700 (PDT), John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com> wrote: >> Eric >An on-demand system would be perfect for him and take up much less space. Why doesn't your brother want an instant demand heater? >If it's electrical draw that exceeds the wiring, I'd just snake in new wiring and a new breaker and use the on demand heater. Sheesh! He is not gonna run a new wire. I already said that. It is not an easy task. Power would need to come down from the attic. Eric |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Oct 01 12:40PM -0700 > provide enough hot water. They saw the small water heater I use in my > shop and they think it is perfect. It just draws too much current to > be used at the same time a dishwasher is heating. The solution is, then, contained in how you stated the problem. a) A tankless POU water heater uses current only when flowing. b) A dishwasher wants hot water to feed it, but it does not require it to function properly. NSF regulations see to that. c) If your brother is able to restrain himself to not running hot water to the sink except when the dishwasher is OFF, just go with a larger tankless device. They come (in the US) up to 18 A at 120 V. Under your sink, run the tankless heater to a separate dispenser - some even come that way. Use the regular hot water line to feed the dishwasher, and the cold line to feed the sink. Note that separate dispenser devices will make water hot enough for tea or instant coffee at one setting, then dial back to sub-scalding temperatures for washing use. Handy little things. Ultron comes to mind as a brand name. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Oct 01 05:12PM -0400 >> Well, it may be a very bad idea, but the NEC doesn't cover stuff plugged >> into receptacles, as this dishwasher is. > It does cover kludged relays that control line-voltage appliances. Only if it's hard wired, If it plugs in, it's an appliance itself. |
| ggherold@gmail.com: Oct 01 02:51PM -0700 > product would be better. > Thanks, > Eric Googling "small water heater 120V" I got a bunch of stuff, here's a 6 gallon one. https://www.supplyhouse.com/AO-Smith-EJC-6-6-Gallon-ProLine-Compact-Residential-Electric-Water-Heater Is that what you want? George H. |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Oct 01 05:16PM -0700 >https://www.supplyhouse.com/AO-Smith-EJC-6-6-Gallon-ProLine-Compact-Residential-Electric-Water-Heater >Is that what you want? >George H. It's actually smaller, about two gallons. Eric |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Oct 02 03:58AM -0700 > It does cover kludged relays that control line-voltage appliances. > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA such demand management is perfectly legal here. |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Oct 02 05:02AM -0700 > such demand management is perfectly legal here. The US has three levels of "management" for electrical (and other) devices: a) The National Electrical Code (NEC): This regulates hard-wired systems and switchgear, and how peripheral devices are connected to the system - such as light fixtures and other devices not plugged in. A hard-wired relay would be considered "switchgear" and therefore covered. b) UL (Underwriters Laboratory) - this is a 'family' of such bodies, of which UL is the most prevalent: UL regulates those devices that connect to the system above, and has to do with (among many other things) grounding, electrical safety, loading, and so forth. This applies to stand-alone (complete) devices. Note that such devices are "LISTED", not "approved". c) UR (Recognized): This applies to individual components within a system - such as a relay in a control, or similar. That part does not stand alone. but may be replaceable. So, if one has a UL device of several parts, one fails, then that part *must* be replaced with a UR part to retain the UL listing. Why it matters: There is this funny thing called "insurance". And if one has property insurance, and reads the fine print, it will refer to things meeting code and being properly inspected and so forth. It will also refer to 'connected devices' or any number of other words for whatever one has to plug into the wall as being "listed". Should that hand-made relay you are referring to cause a fire and cause damage such that the property owner makes a claim - and should the insurance inspector (and there will be one) determine that the cause was this unlisted/unrecognized device - OOPS! Either the Company will not pay, or if it does, it will then immediately cancel the policy. And the property owner will be quite challenged to get insurance in the future at any reasonable cost. Nothing that was done was "illegal". And Code Violations are not "illegal". Just stupid. Something you continue not to understand. And the advice you give continues to suffer for it. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Oct 02 07:35AM -0500 > Nothing that was done was "illegal". And Code Violations are > not "illegal". In Ranger, the code works like this: "It ain't blowed up yet has it?" And when it inevitably does: "Aw man, it blowed up. You must'a doned it wrong." Neutrals can be 1 or 2 sizes smaller, because, you know, no current in Neutral or they would have called it something else. #8 for a water heater? #10 is cheaper. Same reason #14 works for outlets. Double breakers with a pin between the handles? Pish tosh, a pair of singles works just fine, and they DON'T have to be next to each other. Run out of wires? Use the bare one for ground and neutral, then you can use the white one for power. No ground in the outlet box? No problem tie the neutral and ground screws together. And yeah, I'm waiting for my neighbor's house to explode. -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
| "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com>: Oct 02 08:45AM -0400 On 30 Sep 19 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article 10b56eb2-75e5-4a4c-b968-5f0b60a5dbb7@googlegroups.com > turns of thick wire. Now when enough current goes to the dishwasher, the > water heater is turned off. I'd use 2 relays the same, one to experiment, > the 2nd for the final unit. No, it wouldn't work. Normal relays working with DC coils. You need a very special relay designed for AC coils. Very rare and likely expensive. Contactors exist for AC and DC coils, maybe they work. You need one with contact type NC i.e. closed for feeding the heater when no current is drawn from the dishwasher. These NC types are not common too. Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig) Wolfgang -- Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt! Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p (lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Oct 02 06:09AM -0700 On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 8:47:23 AM UTC-4, Wolfgang Allinger wrote: > No, it wouldn't work. Normal relays working with DC coils. You need a very > special relay designed for AC coils. Very rare and likely expensive. Not rare. But certainly expensive, by a factor of 3 to 5. The difference, at the simplest level, is that the AC-coil relay has two coils (transformer) such that the second is producing current as the first is 'collapsing', thereby holding the contactor in place instead of "chattering". That is, as stated, the simplest description of a not-simple configuration - hence the cost. https://www.techwalla.com/articles/difference-between-ac-dc-relay-coil Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Oct 02 10:55AM -0400 In article <20057da5-fcd6-4b84-8d26-c6c5ecee8ba8@googlegroups.com>, peterwieck33@gmail.com says... > > No, it wouldn't work. Normal relays working with DC coils. You need a very > > special relay designed for AC coils. Very rare and likely expensive. > Not rare. But certainly expensive, by a factor of 3 to 5. The difference, at the simplest level, is that the AC-coil relay has two coils (transformer) such that the second is producing current as the first is 'collapsing', thereby holding the contactor in place instead of "chattering". That is, as stated, the simplest description of a not-simple configuration - hence the cost. > https://www.techwalla.com/articles/difference-between-ac-dc-relay-coil > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA BS They are not rare or is the price that much different. For example a plug in relay that is almost identical except for the coil voltage and current As listed in a Mouser catalog. KRPA-11AG-120 $ 22 120 Volt AC coil 10 amp contacts KRPA-11DG-24 $ 16 24 Volt DC coil 10 amp contacts. That so called second coil is really just a thick piece of copper at the top of the coil. Large AC contactors often have similar pieces of copper on the laminations. I worked in a plant that had hundreds if not thousands of relays similar to those. Part were AC coils and part were DC coils. Now solid state 'relays' are often used in switching AC circuits off and on. We used many of those also. |
| Bo-Lennart <bo-lennart.karlsson@telia.com>: Oct 01 10:07AM -0700 Den fredag 27 september 2019 kl. 19:48:15 UTC+2 skrev Bo-Lennart: > Many thanks in advance > Bo-Lennart Karlsson > Falun, SWEDEN I have uploaded som picture of the trafo. And I made a schematic of the transformer. Here is the links: https://i.ibb.co/Jx3RtLR/20190929-155553.jpg https://i.ibb.co/mh0k6rB/20190929-155912.jpg https://i.ibb.co/z4PV2JZ/20191001-164147-001.jpg https://i.ibb.co/QYVPqwR/20191001-164228.jpg https://i.ibb.co/NKDynrF/20191001-164522.jpg https://i.ibb.co/0Qq2xf0/20191001-164553.jpg https://i.ibb.co/c2Rtcqw/20191001-164606.jpg Well, I'm an old man (turned 70 early this yr), and I started my electronic profession very young. At that time the car radio had VIBRATOR to make 12V (or 6V) transformable. And I start to think that it's a such transformer. The screw-terminal could be switchable betveen 12 and 6 Volts use ?????. How about that? Anyone have a better suggestions? Best regards Bo-Lennart Karlsson Falun, SWEDEN |
| Arie de Muynck <no.spam@no.spam.org>: Oct 01 09:02PM +0200 On 2019-10-01 19:07, Bo-Lennart wrote: > Best regards > Bo-Lennart Karlsson > Falun, SWEDEN Hi, Never knew Motorola started as Galvin Mfg Corp: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola>. That tranny could be a real museum piece! Could you double check the inductance between 7-8? The combination of much higher inductance and still a low DC resistance looks suspicious. Was it not 3.08 mH? Then it could be the separate filament output for an HV rectifier tube. The HV output for a vibrator transformer would have high resistance (like 4-5-6) but a much higher inductance than the input windings, and it isn't. Also suspicious. Some 50 years ago I've repaired an old 12V (or 6V?) input tube car-radio, and it had a vibrator inverter. However, the transformer was much less complicated: just two primary and two secondary windings. There was no rectifier tube, the vibrator also rectified the HV. The tube filaments were directly run on the incoming 12Vdc. Arie |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Oct 01 08:58PM -0700 Bo-Lennart wrote: ---------------- > schematic of the > transformer. > Here is the links: https://i.ibb.co/NKDynrF/20191001-164522.jpg ------------------------------------------ ** I will ignore some of your L figures (it's very difficult to measure inductances of the windings on a non-gaped iron transformer, cos they are large an non linear. ) The diagram shows *very* typical R vales for a push-pull audio output tranny of about 60 to 100 watts rating - ie 65 and 59 ohms for the CT primary and 0.66 ohms for an 8 ohm secondary. The other 4 windings may be also secondaries, allowing various impedances to be added in series or parallel. My next trick would be to connect the full primary to a Variac and wind it slowly up while monitoring the current flow on a DMM. Long as the current stays below 100mA all the way to 230VAC, then you can find the secondary voltages, get ratios and be in business. BTW: what does it weigh? Any decent 100W valve output tranny weighs about 4 or 5kgs. BTW2: 70 is NOT old !! .... Phil |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Oct 01 05:26PM -0700 So I got clarification on the water heater situation. In the past they had an instant on water heater and it was disliked. After a kitchen remodel they looked once again at one of these but realized that their new sink does not have a hole for another dispenser of any type. So in order to get hot water fast they need a small water heater that is inline with the regular hot water line and comes out of the faucet. That's why the one in my shop intertested them so much, because that's how I have it plumbed. This means that even if the hot water isn't being used in the sink the water in the small tank may cool enough to turn on the heating element while the diswasher is running. That's why the need for something to prevent the heater from coming on when the dishwasher is running. Thanks to everybody who tried to convince me the desired relay device wasn't needed but it still turns out that it is needed. So, anybody know of one? Eric |
| ABLE1 <somewhere@nowhere.net>: Oct 01 10:32PM -0400 > device wasn't needed but it still turns out that it is needed. So, > anybody know of one? > Eric Eric, Goggle the following. >> ac current sensing relay >> adjustable ac current sensing relay I will let everyone else tell you why it won't work or otherwise. Good Luck!! Les |
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